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	<title>Comments on: Our Rights are Threatened by All These New Rights</title>
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	<link>http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2009/11/our-rights-are-threatened-by-all-these-new-rights.html</link>
	<description>Dispatches from a Small Business</description>
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		<title>By: Noumenon</title>
		<link>http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2009/11/our-rights-are-threatened-by-all-these-new-rights.html/comment-page-1#comment-29794</link>
		<dc:creator>Noumenon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Nov 2009 18:07:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.coyoteblog.com/?p=9706#comment-29794</guid>
		<description>Keith almost had me convinced there but I will keep that right to a fair trial example tucked away for the next time this argument comes up.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Keith almost had me convinced there but I will keep that right to a fair trial example tucked away for the next time this argument comes up.</p>
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		<title>By: me</title>
		<link>http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2009/11/our-rights-are-threatened-by-all-these-new-rights.html/comment-page-1#comment-28721</link>
		<dc:creator>me</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Nov 2009 19:42:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.coyoteblog.com/?p=9706#comment-28721</guid>
		<description>Thank you Noumenon for making a great point. 

Let&#039;s disregard the right of assembly on an island for a minute, the desert island test is stupid exactly because of the reason Noumenon spells out: it abstracts anything having to do with human-on-human interaction by the simple expedient of not having anyone else present.

Rights get interesting precisely when they impinge on others, so all interesting scenarios are out by definition.

Example: the desert island test allows for privacy or healthcare - you have the right to complete privacy (you are alone, so it nobody could observe you) and the absolute best healthcare that desert island has to offer (ok, not much due to absence of others ;).

The only thing it&#039;s useful (due to lack of people) is that it clearly identifies any &#039;rights&#039; that compel others to do things. But that&#039;s just a fraction of what constitutes rights, not a complete definition. And before someone chimes up about how that is exactly the point - consider how in real life, your right to a fair trial compels all sort of action in others.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you Noumenon for making a great point. </p>
<p>Let&#8217;s disregard the right of assembly on an island for a minute, the desert island test is stupid exactly because of the reason Noumenon spells out: it abstracts anything having to do with human-on-human interaction by the simple expedient of not having anyone else present.</p>
<p>Rights get interesting precisely when they impinge on others, so all interesting scenarios are out by definition.</p>
<p>Example: the desert island test allows for privacy or healthcare &#8211; you have the right to complete privacy (you are alone, so it nobody could observe you) and the absolute best healthcare that desert island has to offer (ok, not much due to absence of others <img src='http://coyote-blog.com/wordpress/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> .</p>
<p>The only thing it&#8217;s useful (due to lack of people) is that it clearly identifies any &#8216;rights&#8217; that compel others to do things. But that&#8217;s just a fraction of what constitutes rights, not a complete definition. And before someone chimes up about how that is exactly the point &#8211; consider how in real life, your right to a fair trial compels all sort of action in others.</p>
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		<title>By: Keith</title>
		<link>http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2009/11/our-rights-are-threatened-by-all-these-new-rights.html/comment-page-1#comment-28708</link>
		<dc:creator>Keith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Nov 2009 14:15:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.coyoteblog.com/?p=9706#comment-28708</guid>
		<description>Noumenon, 

   I don&#039;t think you understand the concept of the &#039;desert island test&#039; if you think it is stupid. The fact of the matter is you can have your &#039;right to assembly&#039; on a desert island. The right to assembly is defined as follows: &quot;Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.&quot; There is nothing in there that says you have the right to create an assembly of 2 or more people, just that congress can not pass a law prohibiting your right to assemble.

   To understand how this applies in real life, if you say there is a &#039;right to healthcare&#039; for example, you are stating that if you are sick or injured you have the right to be treated. You do not have this right if you are alone on a desert island because it requires someone to provide the care for you. The idea behind the desert island test is if it requires someone to do something for you it&#039;s not an actual &#039;right&#039; it is the confiscation of one persons labor/money and redistribution to another person.

   There are no amendments to the constitution that require one person or group of persons to give/do something for another person. Not all of them may be particularly useful to you on a desert island and they may not be the easiest to utilize but they are all as applicable on a desert island as they are in any of the 50 states of the union.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Noumenon, </p>
<p>   I don&#8217;t think you understand the concept of the &#8216;desert island test&#8217; if you think it is stupid. The fact of the matter is you can have your &#8216;right to assembly&#8217; on a desert island. The right to assembly is defined as follows: &#8220;Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.&#8221; There is nothing in there that says you have the right to create an assembly of 2 or more people, just that congress can not pass a law prohibiting your right to assemble.</p>
<p>   To understand how this applies in real life, if you say there is a &#8216;right to healthcare&#8217; for example, you are stating that if you are sick or injured you have the right to be treated. You do not have this right if you are alone on a desert island because it requires someone to provide the care for you. The idea behind the desert island test is if it requires someone to do something for you it&#8217;s not an actual &#8216;right&#8217; it is the confiscation of one persons labor/money and redistribution to another person.</p>
<p>   There are no amendments to the constitution that require one person or group of persons to give/do something for another person. Not all of them may be particularly useful to you on a desert island and they may not be the easiest to utilize but they are all as applicable on a desert island as they are in any of the 50 states of the union.</p>
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		<title>By: Noumenon</title>
		<link>http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2009/11/our-rights-are-threatened-by-all-these-new-rights.html/comment-page-1#comment-28495</link>
		<dc:creator>Noumenon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Nov 2009 18:42:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.coyoteblog.com/?p=9706#comment-28495</guid>
		<description>Well shit, I didn&#039;t realize that!  Why have I been raising aphids in my back yard then?

Humans also aren&#039;t spiders, or rhinoceroses, to pick two examples of truly solitary creatures that you could expect to lead a natural existence on a desert island.  They are more similar to ants, inherently social creatures.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well shit, I didn&#8217;t realize that!  Why have I been raising aphids in my back yard then?</p>
<p>Humans also aren&#8217;t spiders, or rhinoceroses, to pick two examples of truly solitary creatures that you could expect to lead a natural existence on a desert island.  They are more similar to ants, inherently social creatures.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2009/11/our-rights-are-threatened-by-all-these-new-rights.html/comment-page-1#comment-28287</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Nov 2009 02:31:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.coyoteblog.com/?p=9706#comment-28287</guid>
		<description>&quot;The desert island test is stupid — it’s like determining the natural rights for an ant by what he would be entitled to with no anthill. Humans are inherently social and don’t exist alone on desert islands any more than singleton ants do. An ant bill of rights that calls for all ants to be fed and protected isn’t unnatural just because drones can’t feed themselves and workers can’t fight.&quot; Humans aren&#039;t ants.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The desert island test is stupid — it’s like determining the natural rights for an ant by what he would be entitled to with no anthill. Humans are inherently social and don’t exist alone on desert islands any more than singleton ants do. An ant bill of rights that calls for all ants to be fed and protected isn’t unnatural just because drones can’t feed themselves and workers can’t fight.&#8221; Humans aren&#8217;t ants.</p>
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		<title>By: sethstorm</title>
		<link>http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2009/11/our-rights-are-threatened-by-all-these-new-rights.html/comment-page-1#comment-28229</link>
		<dc:creator>sethstorm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Nov 2009 18:39:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.coyoteblog.com/?p=9706#comment-28229</guid>
		<description>I wouldn’t put direct blame on illegal immigration. Government is setting a minimum rate of pay that is drawing these people here. People willing to cross a river and travel hundreds if not thousands of miles to work show motivation.
--

But they are illegal nonetheless.  That&#039;s why I&#039;m for stricter border control and penalties for businesses who employ these people or support those who do so(so they can&#039;t hide behind anybody).

The best thing to do is to return them to the nation and make sure they never return, even if by deadly force.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wouldn’t put direct blame on illegal immigration. Government is setting a minimum rate of pay that is drawing these people here. People willing to cross a river and travel hundreds if not thousands of miles to work show motivation.<br />
&#8211;</p>
<p>But they are illegal nonetheless.  That&#8217;s why I&#8217;m for stricter border control and penalties for businesses who employ these people or support those who do so(so they can&#8217;t hide behind anybody).</p>
<p>The best thing to do is to return them to the nation and make sure they never return, even if by deadly force.</p>
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		<title>By: Noumenon</title>
		<link>http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2009/11/our-rights-are-threatened-by-all-these-new-rights.html/comment-page-1#comment-28185</link>
		<dc:creator>Noumenon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Nov 2009 13:16:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.coyoteblog.com/?p=9706#comment-28185</guid>
		<description>&lt;I&gt;I often use the desert island test – if you can’t have the right alone on a desert island, its not a right.&lt;/i&gt;

Well, there goes freedom of assembly.

The desert island test is stupid -- it&#039;s like determining the natural rights for an ant by what he would be entitled to with no anthill.  Humans are inherently social and don&#039;t exist alone on desert islands any more than singleton ants do.  An ant bill of rights that calls for all ants to be fed and protected isn&#039;t unnatural just because drones can&#039;t feed themselves and workers can&#039;t fight.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>I often use the desert island test – if you can’t have the right alone on a desert island, its not a right.</i></p>
<p>Well, there goes freedom of assembly.</p>
<p>The desert island test is stupid &#8212; it&#8217;s like determining the natural rights for an ant by what he would be entitled to with no anthill.  Humans are inherently social and don&#8217;t exist alone on desert islands any more than singleton ants do.  An ant bill of rights that calls for all ants to be fed and protected isn&#8217;t unnatural just because drones can&#8217;t feed themselves and workers can&#8217;t fight.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2009/11/our-rights-are-threatened-by-all-these-new-rights.html/comment-page-1#comment-28127</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Nov 2009 03:38:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.coyoteblog.com/?p=9706#comment-28127</guid>
		<description>I wouldn&#039;t put direct blame on illegal immigration. Government is setting a minimum rate of pay that is drawing these people here. People willing to cross a river and travel hundreds if not thousands of miles to work show motivation. 

I would agree that many of the jobs open to me when I was in high school are gone. As for teens not knowing how to work, two words, helicopter parents.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wouldn&#8217;t put direct blame on illegal immigration. Government is setting a minimum rate of pay that is drawing these people here. People willing to cross a river and travel hundreds if not thousands of miles to work show motivation. </p>
<p>I would agree that many of the jobs open to me when I was in high school are gone. As for teens not knowing how to work, two words, helicopter parents.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim</title>
		<link>http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2009/11/our-rights-are-threatened-by-all-these-new-rights.html/comment-page-1#comment-28096</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Nov 2009 23:20:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.coyoteblog.com/?p=9706#comment-28096</guid>
		<description>Anyone who has hired a young worker lately knows that most kids don&#039;t know how to work. Get there on time, dressed neatly, pleasent attitude, etc. 
I think the minimum wage has something to do with it, but illegal immigration has to take a part of the blame also. Anyone know a 16 year old who mows lawns or works construction? Those jobs have disappeared for our teenagers. I&#039;ve had five young men work for me in the last ten years, and had a bad experience with three of them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anyone who has hired a young worker lately knows that most kids don&#8217;t know how to work. Get there on time, dressed neatly, pleasent attitude, etc.<br />
I think the minimum wage has something to do with it, but illegal immigration has to take a part of the blame also. Anyone know a 16 year old who mows lawns or works construction? Those jobs have disappeared for our teenagers. I&#8217;ve had five young men work for me in the last ten years, and had a bad experience with three of them.</p>
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		<title>By: Gil</title>
		<link>http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2009/11/our-rights-are-threatened-by-all-these-new-rights.html/comment-page-1#comment-27959</link>
		<dc:creator>Gil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Nov 2009 05:51:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.coyoteblog.com/?p=9706#comment-27959</guid>
		<description>The U.S. Constitution failed for two reasons:

1. It was designed so it could be amended (e.g. 16th Amendment).

2. It allows for certain rights to disappear in times of &quot;war and certain other emergencies&quot;. (e.g. habeas corpus as per Article 1, Section 9).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The U.S. Constitution failed for two reasons:</p>
<p>1. It was designed so it could be amended (e.g. 16th Amendment).</p>
<p>2. It allows for certain rights to disappear in times of &#8220;war and certain other emergencies&#8221;. (e.g. habeas corpus as per Article 1, Section 9).</p>
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