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	<title>Comments on: Watch Out &#8211; Your Industry May Be Gutted Like A Trout Next</title>
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	<link>http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2009/08/watch-out-your-industry-may-be-gutted-like-a-trout-next.html</link>
	<description>Dispatches from a Small Business</description>
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		<title>By: Noumenon</title>
		<link>http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2009/08/watch-out-your-industry-may-be-gutted-like-a-trout-next.html/comment-page-1#comment-22290</link>
		<dc:creator>Noumenon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Aug 2009 21:28:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.coyoteblog.com/?p=8692#comment-22290</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Back in the 90â€™s I made over 4% interest on CDâ€™s.&lt;/i&gt;

This is why I honestly don&#039;t believe that reporting profits as 3.3% makes any sense.  No one would go to the trouble of running a giant business or investing in it for 3.3%.  3.3% is what you get for doing no work whatsoever.  Also, 3.3% is so small that it ought to be wiped out by random factors: lawsuits, cost overruns, windfalls.  Nothing as messy as a big corporation should be expected to produce profits that reliable.

Call me willfully ignorant, but I am not gonna believe that competition in every one of the vast oligopolies in every industry is so tight that profit margins are competed down under 10%.  Someone is getting paid better than that, they&#039;re just not calling it &quot;profits.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Back in the 90â€™s I made over 4% interest on CDâ€™s.</i></p>
<p>This is why I honestly don&#8217;t believe that reporting profits as 3.3% makes any sense.  No one would go to the trouble of running a giant business or investing in it for 3.3%.  3.3% is what you get for doing no work whatsoever.  Also, 3.3% is so small that it ought to be wiped out by random factors: lawsuits, cost overruns, windfalls.  Nothing as messy as a big corporation should be expected to produce profits that reliable.</p>
<p>Call me willfully ignorant, but I am not gonna believe that competition in every one of the vast oligopolies in every industry is so tight that profit margins are competed down under 10%.  Someone is getting paid better than that, they&#8217;re just not calling it &#8220;profits.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: class factotum</title>
		<link>http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2009/08/watch-out-your-industry-may-be-gutted-like-a-trout-next.html/comment-page-1#comment-22038</link>
		<dc:creator>class factotum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Aug 2009 18:31:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.coyoteblog.com/?p=8692#comment-22038</guid>
		<description>&quot;this profit is likely made from investment income&quot;

I thought it was property and casualty companies that made investment income. Health insurance companies don&#039;t get to hold onto the money as long because claims are fairly steady.

Incidentally, I think Obama et al probably also do not understand the difference between underwriting gains (the difference between premiums and claims paid) and profit, which is what is left after administrative costs are taken out and the dividend/underwriting gain paid back to the client. No, health insurance companies don&#039;t get to keep all the extra if they vastly overestimate the premium required. For larger companies that aren&#039;t already admin services only, there is (or used to be, in the late 80s when I worked for Prudential Ins) a dividend that was paid to the client.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;this profit is likely made from investment income&#8221;</p>
<p>I thought it was property and casualty companies that made investment income. Health insurance companies don&#8217;t get to hold onto the money as long because claims are fairly steady.</p>
<p>Incidentally, I think Obama et al probably also do not understand the difference between underwriting gains (the difference between premiums and claims paid) and profit, which is what is left after administrative costs are taken out and the dividend/underwriting gain paid back to the client. No, health insurance companies don&#8217;t get to keep all the extra if they vastly overestimate the premium required. For larger companies that aren&#8217;t already admin services only, there is (or used to be, in the late 80s when I worked for Prudential Ins) a dividend that was paid to the client.</p>
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		<title>By: alanstorm</title>
		<link>http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2009/08/watch-out-your-industry-may-be-gutted-like-a-trout-next.html/comment-page-1#comment-22036</link>
		<dc:creator>alanstorm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Aug 2009 15:23:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.coyoteblog.com/?p=8692#comment-22036</guid>
		<description>Morganovich, it&#039;s worse than you think: consider that your two scenarios are not mutually exclusive.  This 3rd scenario is more likely than either of the first two alone.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Morganovich, it&#8217;s worse than you think: consider that your two scenarios are not mutually exclusive.  This 3rd scenario is more likely than either of the first two alone.</p>
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		<title>By: Fred from Canuckistan . . .</title>
		<link>http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2009/08/watch-out-your-industry-may-be-gutted-like-a-trout-next.html/comment-page-1#comment-22009</link>
		<dc:creator>Fred from Canuckistan . . .</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Aug 2009 20:46:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.coyoteblog.com/?p=8692#comment-22009</guid>
		<description>&quot;The American College of Surgeons is deeply disturbed over the uninformed public comments President Obama continues to make about the high-quality care provided by surgeons in the United States. When the President makes statements that are incorrect or not based in fact, we think he does a disservice to the American people at a time when they want clear, understandable facts about health care reform.  We want to set the record straight.

 --  Yesterday during a town hall meeting, President Obama got his facts
     completely wrong. He stated that a surgeon gets paid $50,000 for a leg
     amputation when, in fact, Medicare pays a surgeon between $740 and
     $1,140 for a leg amputation.  This payment also includes the
     evaluation of the patient on the day of the operation plus patient
     follow-up care that is provided for 90 days after the operation.
     Private insurers pay some variation of the Medicare reimbursement for
     this service.

 --  Three weeks ago, the President suggested that a surgeon&#039;s decision to
     remove a child&#039;s tonsils is based on the desire to make a lot of
     money. That remark was ill-informed and dangerous, and we were
     dismayed by this characterization of the work surgeons do.  Surgeons
     make decisions about recommending operations based on what&#039;s right for
     the patient.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The American College of Surgeons is deeply disturbed over the uninformed public comments President Obama continues to make about the high-quality care provided by surgeons in the United States. When the President makes statements that are incorrect or not based in fact, we think he does a disservice to the American people at a time when they want clear, understandable facts about health care reform.  We want to set the record straight.</p>
<p> &#8212;  Yesterday during a town hall meeting, President Obama got his facts<br />
     completely wrong. He stated that a surgeon gets paid $50,000 for a leg<br />
     amputation when, in fact, Medicare pays a surgeon between $740 and<br />
     $1,140 for a leg amputation.  This payment also includes the<br />
     evaluation of the patient on the day of the operation plus patient<br />
     follow-up care that is provided for 90 days after the operation.<br />
     Private insurers pay some variation of the Medicare reimbursement for<br />
     this service.</p>
<p> &#8212;  Three weeks ago, the President suggested that a surgeon&#8217;s decision to<br />
     remove a child&#8217;s tonsils is based on the desire to make a lot of<br />
     money. That remark was ill-informed and dangerous, and we were<br />
     dismayed by this characterization of the work surgeons do.  Surgeons<br />
     make decisions about recommending operations based on what&#8217;s right for<br />
     the patient.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: tomw</title>
		<link>http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2009/08/watch-out-your-industry-may-be-gutted-like-a-trout-next.html/comment-page-1#comment-22003</link>
		<dc:creator>tomw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Aug 2009 18:27:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.coyoteblog.com/?p=8692#comment-22003</guid>
		<description>The Senate and House are making RECORD BREAKING SALARIES!  Shouldn&#039;t they be concerned when all of their constituents are having such economic problems?  Shouldn&#039;t they roll back their raises that are granted automatically unless they vote to rescind them?
 At a time when we have record deficits, they legislators should refuse pay raises, or we should regulate them!
 Whattabunchacrap.  Record oil profits --- IMPLY Record Oil Tax Revenue GREATER than those hated profits, but you don&#039;t hear about that.
tom</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Senate and House are making RECORD BREAKING SALARIES!  Shouldn&#8217;t they be concerned when all of their constituents are having such economic problems?  Shouldn&#8217;t they roll back their raises that are granted automatically unless they vote to rescind them?<br />
 At a time when we have record deficits, they legislators should refuse pay raises, or we should regulate them!<br />
 Whattabunchacrap.  Record oil profits &#8212; IMPLY Record Oil Tax Revenue GREATER than those hated profits, but you don&#8217;t hear about that.<br />
tom</p>
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		<title>By: Zach</title>
		<link>http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2009/08/watch-out-your-industry-may-be-gutted-like-a-trout-next.html/comment-page-1#comment-22002</link>
		<dc:creator>Zach</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Aug 2009 17:22:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.coyoteblog.com/?p=8692#comment-22002</guid>
		<description>Back in the 90&#039;s I made over 4% interest on CD&#039;s.  Guess I should be reported to flag@whitehouse.gov for immoral profiteering.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Back in the 90&#8242;s I made over 4% interest on CD&#8217;s.  Guess I should be reported to <a href="mailto:flag@whitehouse.gov">flag@whitehouse.gov</a> for immoral profiteering.</p>
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		<title>By: boqueronman</title>
		<link>http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2009/08/watch-out-your-industry-may-be-gutted-like-a-trout-next.html/comment-page-1#comment-22000</link>
		<dc:creator>boqueronman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Aug 2009 15:57:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.coyoteblog.com/?p=8692#comment-22000</guid>
		<description>Does anybody here think the &quot;Three [Leftist] Amigos&quot; mentioned above have any idea how a business operates?  What a profit and loss statement is?  What income statements and balance sheets are?  The ownership and staffing profiles of insurance companies are?  Ian has it exactly right.  The obscene/immoral profits pejorative comes from a mixture of ad hominem attack politics and the Pavlovian emotional response they expect from your typical non-profit community organization employee to a dollar amount higher than his/her annual salary.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Does anybody here think the &#8220;Three [Leftist] Amigos&#8221; mentioned above have any idea how a business operates?  What a profit and loss statement is?  What income statements and balance sheets are?  The ownership and staffing profiles of insurance companies are?  Ian has it exactly right.  The obscene/immoral profits pejorative comes from a mixture of ad hominem attack politics and the Pavlovian emotional response they expect from your typical non-profit community organization employee to a dollar amount higher than his/her annual salary.</p>
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		<title>By: morganovich</title>
		<link>http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2009/08/watch-out-your-industry-may-be-gutted-like-a-trout-next.html/comment-page-1#comment-21999</link>
		<dc:creator>morganovich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Aug 2009 14:21:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.coyoteblog.com/?p=8692#comment-21999</guid>
		<description>it&#039;s very possible to have &quot;record earnings&quot; while your profit margins erode.

consider a lemonade stand.  if you sell $100 worth and make $10 profit, that&#039;s a 10% margin.

if you merge with another lemonade stand, that was having trouble and was selling $100 of lemonade at $5 profit, now, you are a $200 lemonade empire with $15 in profit.   

so, $15 is record profits, but as a % of revenue, it&#039;s 7.5%, down from the 10% you used to get.  so it&#039;s difficult to argue that you are somehow greedier and making record profits by gouging customers.  your returns have dropped.

health insurance companies have been merging at a tremendous rate over the last couple of years.  mostly, this is being driven by margins being so low that they are having trouble surviving on their own.

to portray an industry that is being driven to consolidation to survive low and deteriorating margins as profit gouging is patently absurd.

it seems to me that there are only two possible explanations for this curious tactic:

1. the president and congressional leaders are utterly ignorant of economics/business and literally have no idea what they are talking about

2. they are deliberately lying to gather support for their policies.

neither scenario fills me with a great deal of confidence.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>it&#8217;s very possible to have &#8220;record earnings&#8221; while your profit margins erode.</p>
<p>consider a lemonade stand.  if you sell $100 worth and make $10 profit, that&#8217;s a 10% margin.</p>
<p>if you merge with another lemonade stand, that was having trouble and was selling $100 of lemonade at $5 profit, now, you are a $200 lemonade empire with $15 in profit.   </p>
<p>so, $15 is record profits, but as a % of revenue, it&#8217;s 7.5%, down from the 10% you used to get.  so it&#8217;s difficult to argue that you are somehow greedier and making record profits by gouging customers.  your returns have dropped.</p>
<p>health insurance companies have been merging at a tremendous rate over the last couple of years.  mostly, this is being driven by margins being so low that they are having trouble surviving on their own.</p>
<p>to portray an industry that is being driven to consolidation to survive low and deteriorating margins as profit gouging is patently absurd.</p>
<p>it seems to me that there are only two possible explanations for this curious tactic:</p>
<p>1. the president and congressional leaders are utterly ignorant of economics/business and literally have no idea what they are talking about</p>
<p>2. they are deliberately lying to gather support for their policies.</p>
<p>neither scenario fills me with a great deal of confidence.</p>
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		<title>By: Doug</title>
		<link>http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2009/08/watch-out-your-industry-may-be-gutted-like-a-trout-next.html/comment-page-1#comment-21998</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Aug 2009 13:01:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.coyoteblog.com/?p=8692#comment-21998</guid>
		<description>Profitability as a percentage of equity or assets makes since when talking to investors about return on capital, but consumers are looking at costs.  As few on the left seem to understand, profit is also a real cost of doing business and that function is probably best measured as a margin of revenue.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Profitability as a percentage of equity or assets makes since when talking to investors about return on capital, but consumers are looking at costs.  As few on the left seem to understand, profit is also a real cost of doing business and that function is probably best measured as a margin of revenue.</p>
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		<title>By: Reformed Republican</title>
		<link>http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2009/08/watch-out-your-industry-may-be-gutted-like-a-trout-next.html/comment-page-1#comment-21997</link>
		<dc:creator>Reformed Republican</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Aug 2009 12:44:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.coyoteblog.com/?p=8692#comment-21997</guid>
		<description>&quot;Well, part of the way is to make sure that thereâ€™s some competition out there&quot;

There is competition. It comes from the other insurance companies. Want to increase competition? Decouple health insurance from employment so that individuals can choose their own companies and policies instead of being limited to a small list provided by the employer.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Well, part of the way is to make sure that thereâ€™s some competition out there&#8221;</p>
<p>There is competition. It comes from the other insurance companies. Want to increase competition? Decouple health insurance from employment so that individuals can choose their own companies and policies instead of being limited to a small list provided by the employer.</p>
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