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	<title>Comments on: Raising Car Prices for the Poor</title>
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	<link>http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2009/08/raising-car-prices-for-the-poor.html</link>
	<description>Dispatches from a Small Business</description>
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		<title>By: tribal elder</title>
		<link>http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2009/08/raising-car-prices-for-the-poor.html/comment-page-1#comment-21749</link>
		<dc:creator>tribal elder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Aug 2009 14:17:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.coyoteblog.com/?p=8637#comment-21749</guid>
		<description>If we destroy the clunkers, then poor people and their old cars will stop crowding the roads and get on the light rail trains where they belong.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If we destroy the clunkers, then poor people and their old cars will stop crowding the roads and get on the light rail trains where they belong.</p>
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		<title>By: Nick S.</title>
		<link>http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2009/08/raising-car-prices-for-the-poor.html/comment-page-1#comment-21739</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick S.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Aug 2009 04:02:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.coyoteblog.com/?p=8637#comment-21739</guid>
		<description>22 mpg is &quot;fuel efficient&quot; for a car now?  My wife was driving a &#039;79 Bonneville V8 that still got better than 22 mpg in 2001.  The car was over 20&#039; long.

I&#039;ve never had a car that got less than 27 mpg or so, and none of them were really econoboxes or expensive (and none of them were new).

I use junkyards for a lot of replacement parts for our vehicles.  Thanks a lot for trashing perfectly good cars.  ***holes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>22 mpg is &#8220;fuel efficient&#8221; for a car now?  My wife was driving a &#8217;79 Bonneville V8 that still got better than 22 mpg in 2001.  The car was over 20&#8242; long.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve never had a car that got less than 27 mpg or so, and none of them were really econoboxes or expensive (and none of them were new).</p>
<p>I use junkyards for a lot of replacement parts for our vehicles.  Thanks a lot for trashing perfectly good cars.  ***holes.</p>
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		<title>By: ben</title>
		<link>http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2009/08/raising-car-prices-for-the-poor.html/comment-page-1#comment-21715</link>
		<dc:creator>ben</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Aug 2009 22:42:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.coyoteblog.com/?p=8637#comment-21715</guid>
		<description>Frederic Bastiat wrote on the &lt;a href=&quot;http://bastiat.org/en/twisatwins.html#broken_window&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Broken Window Fallacy&lt;/a&gt; in 1850. 

It is almost as if he had this cash for clunkers scheme in mind when he wrote.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Frederic Bastiat wrote on the <a href="http://bastiat.org/en/twisatwins.html#broken_window" rel="nofollow">Broken Window Fallacy</a> in 1850. </p>
<p>It is almost as if he had this cash for clunkers scheme in mind when he wrote.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2009/08/raising-car-prices-for-the-poor.html/comment-page-1#comment-21711</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Aug 2009 21:13:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.coyoteblog.com/?p=8637#comment-21711</guid>
		<description>I know auto junk yards don&#039;t want these cars. I wonder how much dealers are having to pay to rid themselves of these cars.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I know auto junk yards don&#8217;t want these cars. I wonder how much dealers are having to pay to rid themselves of these cars.</p>
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		<title>By: ArtD0dger</title>
		<link>http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2009/08/raising-car-prices-for-the-poor.html/comment-page-1#comment-21704</link>
		<dc:creator>ArtD0dger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Aug 2009 19:46:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.coyoteblog.com/?p=8637#comment-21704</guid>
		<description>1/4 oz. disposable foam cup in landfill = crass consumerist culture, environmental armageddon.

2 tons of automotive steel in junkyard = economic stimulus, environmental salvation.

Evil Red, don&#039;t give them ideas about breaking windows.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>1/4 oz. disposable foam cup in landfill = crass consumerist culture, environmental armageddon.</p>
<p>2 tons of automotive steel in junkyard = economic stimulus, environmental salvation.</p>
<p>Evil Red, don&#8217;t give them ideas about breaking windows.</p>
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		<title>By: Evil Red Scandi</title>
		<link>http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2009/08/raising-car-prices-for-the-poor.html/comment-page-1#comment-21698</link>
		<dc:creator>Evil Red Scandi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Aug 2009 18:32:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.coyoteblog.com/?p=8637#comment-21698</guid>
		<description>The Broken Window Fallacy strikes again!

@Jaime - AFAIK the program requires the cars get 18MPG or less, and the replacements get 20MPG or greater - so it&#039;s worse than you think. Other than that, your analysis is spectacular.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Broken Window Fallacy strikes again!</p>
<p>@Jaime &#8211; AFAIK the program requires the cars get 18MPG or less, and the replacements get 20MPG or greater &#8211; so it&#8217;s worse than you think. Other than that, your analysis is spectacular.</p>
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		<title>By: Daublin</title>
		<link>http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2009/08/raising-car-prices-for-the-poor.html/comment-page-1#comment-21692</link>
		<dc:creator>Daublin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Aug 2009 17:16:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.coyoteblog.com/?p=8637#comment-21692</guid>
		<description>Besides that, wasn&#039;t this program supposed to help the environment?  Check this out from the linked article:

&quot;The heat of the operating engine then dehydrates the solution leaving solid sodium silicate distributed throughout the engine&#039;s oiled surfaces and moving parts,&quot; says the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration publication. &quot;These solids quickly abrade the bearings causing the engine to seize while damaging the moving parts of the engine and coating all of the oil passages.&quot;

The results of this process don&#039;t sound all that nice to dump into the environment.  The comment about recycling is spot on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Besides that, wasn&#8217;t this program supposed to help the environment?  Check this out from the linked article:</p>
<p>&#8220;The heat of the operating engine then dehydrates the solution leaving solid sodium silicate distributed throughout the engine&#8217;s oiled surfaces and moving parts,&#8221; says the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration publication. &#8220;These solids quickly abrade the bearings causing the engine to seize while damaging the moving parts of the engine and coating all of the oil passages.&#8221;</p>
<p>The results of this process don&#8217;t sound all that nice to dump into the environment.  The comment about recycling is spot on.</p>
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		<title>By: Jamie</title>
		<link>http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2009/08/raising-car-prices-for-the-poor.html/comment-page-1#comment-21689</link>
		<dc:creator>Jamie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Aug 2009 16:29:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.coyoteblog.com/?p=8637#comment-21689</guid>
		<description>I just ran some numbers on the supposed gas saving portion of this program, and here&#039;s what I came up with.

All of the numbers are from 2007, which would be slightly down for 2008

http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/policyinformation/statistics/2007/vm1.cfm

There are 135.9 million passenger vehicles in the US.  The average miles travelled is 12,293, and the total fuel consumption for passenger cars is 74,354,839,000 gallons.  If you do the math, that works out to 22.47 mpg on a national average.  

Let&#039;s assume that all 250,000 cars in the program are &quot;average,&quot; and that they are replaced with cars that get 27.5 mpg (5 mpg increase).  That&#039;s generous, given some of the things I&#039;ve seen about cars that are eligible.

So the average &quot;clunker&quot; burns (12,293 / 22.47) = 547 gallons of fuel a year; and the average &quot;efficient car&quot; burns (12,293 / 27.5) = 447 gallons of fuel a year; or a savings of 100 gallons per car.

So the entire program will save 25,000,000 gallons of gas a year; or .03% of the annual consumption.

If instead you use the total fuel consumed (for passenger cars, tractor trailers, SUVs and pickups) (176,106,247,000 gallons), then the annual fuel savings is .0142%.

Or on an economic basis, you are paying $1 billion to save $75m a year in fuel costs.  That&#039;s a 13 year payback period, even if you assume that those cars will be driven for 13 years.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just ran some numbers on the supposed gas saving portion of this program, and here&#8217;s what I came up with.</p>
<p>All of the numbers are from 2007, which would be slightly down for 2008</p>
<p><a href="http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/policyinformation/statistics/2007/vm1.cfm" rel="nofollow">http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/policyinformation/statistics/2007/vm1.cfm</a></p>
<p>There are 135.9 million passenger vehicles in the US.  The average miles travelled is 12,293, and the total fuel consumption for passenger cars is 74,354,839,000 gallons.  If you do the math, that works out to 22.47 mpg on a national average.  </p>
<p>Let&#8217;s assume that all 250,000 cars in the program are &#8220;average,&#8221; and that they are replaced with cars that get 27.5 mpg (5 mpg increase).  That&#8217;s generous, given some of the things I&#8217;ve seen about cars that are eligible.</p>
<p>So the average &#8220;clunker&#8221; burns (12,293 / 22.47) = 547 gallons of fuel a year; and the average &#8220;efficient car&#8221; burns (12,293 / 27.5) = 447 gallons of fuel a year; or a savings of 100 gallons per car.</p>
<p>So the entire program will save 25,000,000 gallons of gas a year; or .03% of the annual consumption.</p>
<p>If instead you use the total fuel consumed (for passenger cars, tractor trailers, SUVs and pickups) (176,106,247,000 gallons), then the annual fuel savings is .0142%.</p>
<p>Or on an economic basis, you are paying $1 billion to save $75m a year in fuel costs.  That&#8217;s a 13 year payback period, even if you assume that those cars will be driven for 13 years.</p>
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		<title>By: JoshK</title>
		<link>http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2009/08/raising-car-prices-for-the-poor.html/comment-page-1#comment-21679</link>
		<dc:creator>JoshK</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Aug 2009 14:43:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.coyoteblog.com/?p=8637#comment-21679</guid>
		<description>I just can&#039;t imagine what the 2b poor people in the world think when they see the US government spending money to destroy these cars...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just can&#8217;t imagine what the 2b poor people in the world think when they see the US government spending money to destroy these cars&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Rob</title>
		<link>http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2009/08/raising-car-prices-for-the-poor.html/comment-page-1#comment-21678</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Aug 2009 14:35:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.coyoteblog.com/?p=8637#comment-21678</guid>
		<description>Until I saw the video of it being destroyed this morning, I had no idea that a 5 year old Volvo sedan could be such a terrible gas-guzzler!  Who knew?

What an absolutely contemptible program.  &quot;Compassion for the poor&quot; my ass!  The jackals in Washington need to be introduced to some rope and a tall tree.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Until I saw the video of it being destroyed this morning, I had no idea that a 5 year old Volvo sedan could be such a terrible gas-guzzler!  Who knew?</p>
<p>What an absolutely contemptible program.  &#8220;Compassion for the poor&#8221; my ass!  The jackals in Washington need to be introduced to some rope and a tall tree.</p>
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