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	<title>Comments on: Light Rail Uses Twice the Energy as Driving</title>
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	<link>http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2009/08/light-rail-uses-twice-the-energy-as-driving.html</link>
	<description>Dispatches from a Small Business</description>
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		<title>By: egk</title>
		<link>http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2009/08/light-rail-uses-twice-the-energy-as-driving.html/comment-page-1#comment-22576</link>
		<dc:creator>egk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Aug 2009 22:19:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.coyoteblog.com/?p=8769#comment-22576</guid>
		<description>The &#039;average&#039; given in the table is not the average energy intensity of light rail travel in the USA. DoE tables show this to be about 3,450 BTUs per mile (the average on the table is the average of the 26 system averages, a meaningless number).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The &#8216;average&#8217; given in the table is not the average energy intensity of light rail travel in the USA. DoE tables show this to be about 3,450 BTUs per mile (the average on the table is the average of the 26 system averages, a meaningless number).</p>
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		<title>By: Brandybuck</title>
		<link>http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2009/08/light-rail-uses-twice-the-energy-as-driving.html/comment-page-1#comment-22398</link>
		<dc:creator>Brandybuck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Aug 2009 18:08:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.coyoteblog.com/?p=8769#comment-22398</guid>
		<description>The left likes dense urban areas because the left is urban. Urban versus rural is a dichotomy as old as Rome. Red state versus blue state isn&#039;t an accident.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The left likes dense urban areas because the left is urban. Urban versus rural is a dichotomy as old as Rome. Red state versus blue state isn&#8217;t an accident.</p>
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		<title>By: epobirs</title>
		<link>http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2009/08/light-rail-uses-twice-the-energy-as-driving.html/comment-page-1#comment-22378</link>
		<dc:creator>epobirs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Aug 2009 18:30:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.coyoteblog.com/?p=8769#comment-22378</guid>
		<description>Dr. T,

I&#039;ve only had one occasion to use the rail system in Los Angeles County to commute to a job. This was an IT contract position with the Metropolitan Water District that has its HQ right next to Union Station. Driving to the rail station near-ish my home, although mostly in the wrong direction, was worthwhile mostly to avoid the hellish rush hour traffic to get to that part of the city. Costwise, it was a little less expensive than gas and parking.

But when the job required me to go to a different MWD facility in La Verne, which despite being a good deal farther away was an easy drive with god traffic flow, the advantage of driving my own car immediately obvious. 

My work takes me all over the place but that contract was the only time the LA rail system was of any use to me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dr. T,</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve only had one occasion to use the rail system in Los Angeles County to commute to a job. This was an IT contract position with the Metropolitan Water District that has its HQ right next to Union Station. Driving to the rail station near-ish my home, although mostly in the wrong direction, was worthwhile mostly to avoid the hellish rush hour traffic to get to that part of the city. Costwise, it was a little less expensive than gas and parking.</p>
<p>But when the job required me to go to a different MWD facility in La Verne, which despite being a good deal farther away was an easy drive with god traffic flow, the advantage of driving my own car immediately obvious. </p>
<p>My work takes me all over the place but that contract was the only time the LA rail system was of any use to me.</p>
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		<title>By: DAV</title>
		<link>http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2009/08/light-rail-uses-twice-the-energy-as-driving.html/comment-page-1#comment-22374</link>
		<dc:creator>DAV</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Aug 2009 15:29:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.coyoteblog.com/?p=8769#comment-22374</guid>
		<description>There&#039;s something about this graph that bothers me. I would think the goal is to minimize energy (measured in BTU&#039;s in this case). The graph does not show if this goal is being met. 

Comparing efficiencies to determine this is questionable if the efficiencies are unweighted. It matters little if one system is extravagant in energy usage if the others are not.

One person riding a light rail would have a higher BTU per passenger mile than 100 persons riding the same rail. Kenosha, WI has a much higher BPPM than San Diego for the simple reason that San Diego likely has more riders.

A light rail system has a higher energy overhead than a passenger car because of weight but it&#039;s possible to pack more people into a light rail than an automobile.

So the real question is: knowing that increased ridership increases the efficiency of light rail, would a lower BTU expenditure be possible if ridership of current light rail systems were maximized as compared to other forms of transportation (also maximized)?

The analyzis that produced this graph doesn&#039;t answer that question.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There&#8217;s something about this graph that bothers me. I would think the goal is to minimize energy (measured in BTU&#8217;s in this case). The graph does not show if this goal is being met. </p>
<p>Comparing efficiencies to determine this is questionable if the efficiencies are unweighted. It matters little if one system is extravagant in energy usage if the others are not.</p>
<p>One person riding a light rail would have a higher BTU per passenger mile than 100 persons riding the same rail. Kenosha, WI has a much higher BPPM than San Diego for the simple reason that San Diego likely has more riders.</p>
<p>A light rail system has a higher energy overhead than a passenger car because of weight but it&#8217;s possible to pack more people into a light rail than an automobile.</p>
<p>So the real question is: knowing that increased ridership increases the efficiency of light rail, would a lower BTU expenditure be possible if ridership of current light rail systems were maximized as compared to other forms of transportation (also maximized)?</p>
<p>The analyzis that produced this graph doesn&#8217;t answer that question.</p>
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		<title>By: Danny J</title>
		<link>http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2009/08/light-rail-uses-twice-the-energy-as-driving.html/comment-page-1#comment-22373</link>
		<dc:creator>Danny J</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Aug 2009 15:25:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.coyoteblog.com/?p=8769#comment-22373</guid>
		<description>I travel a lot on business. I have noticed that in cities where light rail exists, the trains almost always run close to empty (exception being Boston were light rail is used as part of the subway system).
The whole light rail scheme just seems like a boondoggle to me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I travel a lot on business. I have noticed that in cities where light rail exists, the trains almost always run close to empty (exception being Boston were light rail is used as part of the subway system).<br />
The whole light rail scheme just seems like a boondoggle to me.</p>
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		<title>By: Not Sure</title>
		<link>http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2009/08/light-rail-uses-twice-the-energy-as-driving.html/comment-page-1#comment-22356</link>
		<dc:creator>Not Sure</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Aug 2009 23:51:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.coyoteblog.com/?p=8769#comment-22356</guid>
		<description>&quot;How much time and/or money did you lose by taking the â€œgreenâ€ light rail system?&quot; - Dr. T

Why People Don&#039;t Use Mass Transit- Steven Dutch

Apart from the cost of wages, economic planners rarely acknowledge the value of individual time, but that has absolutely no impact on the reality that people themselves do put value on their time.

...

There are plenty of good reasons to encourage mass transit, but arguments about the hidden costs of the automobile fall on deaf ears because people, unconsciously or not, factor time and convenience into their decision making. The average driver knows perfectly well why she drives.

http://www.uwgb.edu/dutchs/PSEUDOSC/MassTransit.HTM</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;How much time and/or money did you lose by taking the â€œgreenâ€ light rail system?&#8221; &#8211; Dr. T</p>
<p>Why People Don&#8217;t Use Mass Transit- Steven Dutch</p>
<p>Apart from the cost of wages, economic planners rarely acknowledge the value of individual time, but that has absolutely no impact on the reality that people themselves do put value on their time.</p>
<p>&#8230;</p>
<p>There are plenty of good reasons to encourage mass transit, but arguments about the hidden costs of the automobile fall on deaf ears because people, unconsciously or not, factor time and convenience into their decision making. The average driver knows perfectly well why she drives.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.uwgb.edu/dutchs/PSEUDOSC/MassTransit.HTM" rel="nofollow">http://www.uwgb.edu/dutchs/PSEUDOSC/MassTransit.HTM</a></p>
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		<title>By: Dr. T</title>
		<link>http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2009/08/light-rail-uses-twice-the-energy-as-driving.html/comment-page-1#comment-22349</link>
		<dc:creator>Dr. T</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Aug 2009 22:48:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.coyoteblog.com/?p=8769#comment-22349</guid>
		<description>Usually lost in these light rail scenarios are what happens after you get off. The station may be a mile or more from your final destination. Are there buses? Do you need to call a cab? Or, do you have to walk in Phoenix&#039;s heat or Seattle&#039;s cold rains? How much time and/or money did you lose by taking the &quot;green&quot; light rail system?

I lived in the Hampton Roads Metropolitan Area when Norfolk and Virginia Beach were planning a multibillion dollar light rail line. The planned line was designed to do only one thing (although that&#039;s not how they promoted it): get poor workers from the &quot;projects&quot; in Norfolk to the hotels and restaurants on Virginia Beach. Virginia Beach has little parking, and the hotel and restaurant owners didn&#039;t want employees using up parking spots with their clunker cars. That&#039;s why they sought funding for the light rail boondoggle. They could have accomplished the same thing with less money by adding a few more metro transit buses (or, as &quot;Coyote&quot; notes, by giving all the poor employees Priuses).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Usually lost in these light rail scenarios are what happens after you get off. The station may be a mile or more from your final destination. Are there buses? Do you need to call a cab? Or, do you have to walk in Phoenix&#8217;s heat or Seattle&#8217;s cold rains? How much time and/or money did you lose by taking the &#8220;green&#8221; light rail system?</p>
<p>I lived in the Hampton Roads Metropolitan Area when Norfolk and Virginia Beach were planning a multibillion dollar light rail line. The planned line was designed to do only one thing (although that&#8217;s not how they promoted it): get poor workers from the &#8220;projects&#8221; in Norfolk to the hotels and restaurants on Virginia Beach. Virginia Beach has little parking, and the hotel and restaurant owners didn&#8217;t want employees using up parking spots with their clunker cars. That&#8217;s why they sought funding for the light rail boondoggle. They could have accomplished the same thing with less money by adding a few more metro transit buses (or, as &#8220;Coyote&#8221; notes, by giving all the poor employees Priuses).</p>
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		<title>By: David</title>
		<link>http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2009/08/light-rail-uses-twice-the-energy-as-driving.html/comment-page-1#comment-22330</link>
		<dc:creator>David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Aug 2009 17:36:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.coyoteblog.com/?p=8769#comment-22330</guid>
		<description>I&#039;d also like to see the values for some of the heavy-rail systems (DC, SF, etc) considered too - I know that heavy rail is different from light rail in a lot of ways, and I&#039;d be curious to see whether it compares to automobiles in a similar manner.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d also like to see the values for some of the heavy-rail systems (DC, SF, etc) considered too &#8211; I know that heavy rail is different from light rail in a lot of ways, and I&#8217;d be curious to see whether it compares to automobiles in a similar manner.</p>
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		<title>By: James</title>
		<link>http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2009/08/light-rail-uses-twice-the-energy-as-driving.html/comment-page-1#comment-22324</link>
		<dc:creator>James</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Aug 2009 16:42:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.coyoteblog.com/?p=8769#comment-22324</guid>
		<description>I&#039;d be interested to see capital costs/maintenance costs of roads and highways included in these analysis.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d be interested to see capital costs/maintenance costs of roads and highways included in these analysis.</p>
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		<title>By: Frederick</title>
		<link>http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2009/08/light-rail-uses-twice-the-energy-as-driving.html/comment-page-1#comment-22321</link>
		<dc:creator>Frederick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Aug 2009 15:45:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.coyoteblog.com/?p=8769#comment-22321</guid>
		<description>Very good charts: Thanks.

The problem is, I do not think that the progressive light rail folks are concerned so much with energy efficiency as they are concerned with making every one live a dense urban lifestyle.  Exactly why utopian socialist thinkers have always wanted to have most of humanity grouped into urban living I cannot answer, but it does seem if you examine all of their solutions to the world problems, it involved moving people away from free living (guns, rural, self-reliant, self contained transportation, etc) to a more controlled environment (urban communal solutions to all problems).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very good charts: Thanks.</p>
<p>The problem is, I do not think that the progressive light rail folks are concerned so much with energy efficiency as they are concerned with making every one live a dense urban lifestyle.  Exactly why utopian socialist thinkers have always wanted to have most of humanity grouped into urban living I cannot answer, but it does seem if you examine all of their solutions to the world problems, it involved moving people away from free living (guns, rural, self-reliant, self contained transportation, etc) to a more controlled environment (urban communal solutions to all problems).</p>
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