Comments on: Junk Science in the Courtroom http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2009/06/junk-science-in-the-courtroom.html Dispatches from a Small Business Fri, 19 Mar 2010 17:53:00 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: DAV http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2009/06/junk-science-in-the-courtroom.html/comment-page-1#comment-20171 DAV Tue, 23 Jun 2009 15:02:33 +0000 http://www.coyoteblog.com/?p=8183#comment-20171 "I would love to see a criminal judicial system with full-time expert panels comprised of a legal expert and two citizens trained in reasoning, logic, rules of evidence, statistics, etc. Civil cases would have expert panels that vary by the type of case. ..." This one has the potential to be permanently loaded to give any desired outcome -- even if you meant the panel would be advisory only. At least the current system means that the prosecution also has to gamble on the outcome. Unfortunately, the prosecution usually has far less to lose. “I would love to see a criminal judicial system with full-time expert panels comprised of a legal expert and two citizens trained in reasoning, logic, rules of evidence, statistics, etc. Civil cases would have expert panels that vary by the type of case. …”

This one has the potential to be permanently loaded to give any desired outcome — even if you meant the panel would be advisory only. At least the current system means that the prosecution also has to gamble on the outcome. Unfortunately, the prosecution usually has far less to lose.

]]> By: Tsiroth http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2009/06/junk-science-in-the-courtroom.html/comment-page-1#comment-20163 Tsiroth Tue, 23 Jun 2009 10:55:01 +0000 http://www.coyoteblog.com/?p=8183#comment-20163 I'd like to "Me Too" FredP's comment for emphasis. None of the proposed award caps I've ever seen discussed talk about limiting real damages. All the proposals I've seen are for limiting damages for "pain and suffering" and/or punitive damages. I’d like to “Me Too” FredP’s comment for emphasis. None of the
proposed award caps I’ve ever seen discussed talk about limiting real damages. All the proposals I’ve seen are for limiting damages for “pain and suffering” and/or punitive damages.

]]> By: Susan Chandler http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2009/06/junk-science-in-the-courtroom.html/comment-page-1#comment-19960 Susan Chandler Tue, 16 Jun 2009 04:13:59 +0000 http://www.coyoteblog.com/?p=8183#comment-19960 The Innocence Project of Florida posted a YouTube video of Gerald Rivera debunking John Preston's dog handling skills on ABC's "20/20" in 1984. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwF94oXsnvc Rivera is disinterested in a follow-up story; I asked three times at atlarge@foxnews.com. When Rivera came to Florida in December, when charges against Dillon were dropped, it was to attend Gov. Crist's wedding, which had a reported 220 invited guests. The Innocence Project of Florida posted a YouTube video of Gerald Rivera debunking John Preston’s dog handling skills on ABC’s “20/20″ in 1984. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwF94oXsnvc

Rivera is disinterested in a follow-up story; I asked three times at atlarge@foxnews.com. When Rivera came to Florida in December, when charges against Dillon were dropped, it was to attend Gov. Crist’s wedding, which had a reported 220 invited guests.

]]> By: Dr. T http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2009/06/junk-science-in-the-courtroom.html/comment-page-1#comment-19950 Dr. T Mon, 15 Jun 2009 22:45:32 +0000 http://www.coyoteblog.com/?p=8183#comment-19950 The part of our Constitution I truly dislike concerns trials by a jury of one's peers. The notion of being tried by the average idiots around me scares the crap out of me. The average person doesn't understand deductive reasoning, the difference between coincidence and causation, logical thinking and rhetoric, statistics and probabilities, the fallibility of eye witnesses, the high prevalence of perjury among testifying law enforcement personnel, etc. This makes the average person a worse than worthless decider of guilt in a typical criminal trial. The situation for civil trials is worse, because they often involve complex technical issues related to finance, manufacturing, medicine, or engineering. I would love to see a criminal judicial system with full-time expert panels comprised of a legal expert and two citizens trained in reasoning, logic, rules of evidence, statistics, etc. Civil cases would have expert panels that vary by the type of case. A manufacturing liability case might have a legal expert, two manufacturing experts, a product testing expert, and a medical expert (if the product caused injury). With expert panels, no legal team could "pull an OJ." Police and district attorneys would have to be much more scrupulous about evidence and testimony. Junk science testimony would be disallowed, and the lawyer and junk peddler would be fined. Court cases would be shorter, so we could reduce the absurd six-year backlog for civil trials. Unfortunately, at present we have a lot more to worry about than amending the Constitution. We have to defend it against Obama and his minions. The part of our Constitution I truly dislike concerns trials by a jury of one’s peers. The notion of being tried by the average idiots around me scares the crap out of me. The average person doesn’t understand deductive reasoning, the difference between coincidence and causation, logical thinking and rhetoric, statistics and probabilities, the fallibility of eye witnesses, the high prevalence of perjury among testifying law enforcement personnel, etc. This makes the average person a worse than worthless decider of guilt in a typical criminal trial. The situation for civil trials is worse, because they often involve complex technical issues related to finance, manufacturing, medicine, or engineering.

I would love to see a criminal judicial system with full-time expert panels comprised of a legal expert and two citizens trained in reasoning, logic, rules of evidence, statistics, etc. Civil cases would have expert panels that vary by the type of case. A manufacturing liability case might have a legal expert, two manufacturing experts, a product testing expert, and a medical expert (if the product caused injury).

With expert panels, no legal team could “pull an OJ.” Police and district attorneys would have to be much more scrupulous about evidence and testimony. Junk science testimony would be disallowed, and the lawyer and junk peddler would be fined. Court cases would be shorter, so we could reduce the absurd six-year backlog for civil trials. Unfortunately, at present we have a lot more to worry about than amending the Constitution. We have to defend it against Obama and his minions.

]]> By: FredP http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2009/06/junk-science-in-the-courtroom.html/comment-page-1#comment-19946 FredP Mon, 15 Jun 2009 22:16:50 +0000 http://www.coyoteblog.com/?p=8183#comment-19946 >I have never really liked the idea of limitations on liability awards as a solution for nutty civil rulings — after all, how can Congress know in advance exactly what real damages will arise, and why should my ability to recover real damages be capped? The proposals are to cap only punitive damages and "pain and suffering", and to have no limit on real damages. If your real damages are $2 million, you can collect that, plus $250,000 for pain and suffering, but you can't collect $50 million for punitive damages. >I have never really liked the idea of limitations on liability awards as a solution for nutty civil rulings — after all, how can Congress know in advance exactly what real damages will arise, and why should my ability to recover real damages be capped?

The proposals are to cap only punitive damages and “pain and suffering”, and to have no limit on real damages. If your real damages are $2 million, you can collect that, plus $250,000 for pain and suffering, but you can’t collect $50 million for punitive damages.

]]> By: Captain Obviousness http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2009/06/junk-science-in-the-courtroom.html/comment-page-1#comment-19941 Captain Obviousness Mon, 15 Jun 2009 19:27:12 +0000 http://www.coyoteblog.com/?p=8183#comment-19941 Another junk science in the criminal courtroom article on Reason, about a bite mark expert who claimed he was so good he could identify the person who took a bite out of a bologna sandwich http://www.reason.com/news/show/132574.html Another junk science in the criminal courtroom article on Reason, about a bite mark expert who claimed he was so good he could identify the person who took a bite out of a bologna sandwich

http://www.reason.com/news/show/132574.html

]]> By: Me http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2009/06/junk-science-in-the-courtroom.html/comment-page-1#comment-19938 Me Mon, 15 Jun 2009 18:01:28 +0000 http://www.coyoteblog.com/?p=8183#comment-19938 :) Bit hard to sell, but equal damages would be a huge improvement to our system of justice. Currently, there is no real balance, no downside to jailing away that guy you don't know who the nice prosecutor guy tells you might be a risk. Note also that you don't even need flimsy evidence in today's America to convict; whatever became of 'in dubio pro reo'? Link: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31345639/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/ :)

Bit hard to sell, but equal damages would be a huge improvement to our system of justice. Currently, there is no real balance, no downside to jailing away that guy you don’t know who the nice prosecutor guy tells you might be a risk.

Note also that you don’t even need flimsy evidence in today’s America to convict; whatever became of ‘in dubio pro reo’?

Link: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31345639/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/

]]> By: DrTorch http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2009/06/junk-science-in-the-courtroom.html/comment-page-1#comment-19935 DrTorch Mon, 15 Jun 2009 17:38:30 +0000 http://www.coyoteblog.com/?p=8183#comment-19935 I wonder if Joyce Gilchrist was the petshop owner that sold Preston the dog. http://bubbaworld.com/gilchrist.html "Joyce Gilchrist received her nickname "Black Magic" owing to her remarkable ability to see evidence other forensic chemists could not see, to draw conclusions that others would not approach, to turn speculation into fact and in doing so help the Oklahoma County District Attorney's office rack up win after win in district court." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joyce_Gilchrist I wonder if Joyce Gilchrist was the petshop owner that sold Preston the dog.

http://bubbaworld.com/gilchrist.html

“Joyce Gilchrist received her nickname “Black Magic” owing to her remarkable ability to see evidence other forensic chemists could not see, to draw conclusions that others would not approach, to turn speculation into fact and in doing so help the Oklahoma County District Attorney’s office rack up win after win in district court.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joyce_Gilchrist

]]> By: Adam http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2009/06/junk-science-in-the-courtroom.html/comment-page-1#comment-19933 Adam Mon, 15 Jun 2009 17:30:33 +0000 http://www.coyoteblog.com/?p=8183#comment-19933 I favor execution for all prosecuting witnesses and attorneys in cases where people are wrongfully incarcerated and especially executed. I favor execution for all prosecuting witnesses and attorneys in cases where people are wrongfully incarcerated and especially executed.

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