Comments on: More Recognition of the Health Care Trojan Horse http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2009/01/more-recognition-of-the-health-care-trojan-horse.html Dispatches from a Small Business Fri, 19 Mar 2010 13:21:03 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: bobby b http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2009/01/more-recognition-of-the-health-care-trojan-horse.html/comment-page-1#comment-15691 bobby b Thu, 08 Jan 2009 21:41:47 +0000 http://www.coyoteblog.com/?p=6788#comment-15691 "If a group of people want to pool their money for health goods/services . . . " - - - - That would be a refreshing change from the usual situation, where a group of people want to pool MY money to pay for their health care goods and services. “If a group of people want to pool their money for health goods/services . . . ”
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That would be a refreshing change from the usual situation, where a group of people want to pool MY money to pay for their health care goods and services.

]]> By: Allen http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2009/01/more-recognition-of-the-health-care-trojan-horse.html/comment-page-1#comment-15682 Allen Thu, 08 Jan 2009 20:05:40 +0000 http://www.coyoteblog.com/?p=6788#comment-15682 Sean, you touch on something very interesting. That is, despite as much private care that is out there the US's health care system as a whole is arguably over all more socialized than many if not most other industrialized countries. IIRC most Western European countries never when overboard with stuff like England's NHS. Yet too many here in the US seem to not only think that those are systems are more socialized and somehow incredibly perfect. Sean, you touch on something very interesting. That is, despite as much private care that is out there the US’s health care system as a whole is arguably over all more socialized than many if not most other industrialized countries. IIRC most Western European countries never when overboard with stuff like England’s NHS. Yet too many here in the US seem to not only think that those are systems are more socialized and somehow incredibly perfect.

]]> By: Sean Wise http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2009/01/more-recognition-of-the-health-care-trojan-horse.html/comment-page-1#comment-15658 Sean Wise Wed, 07 Jan 2009 19:14:08 +0000 http://www.coyoteblog.com/?p=6788#comment-15658 I think this hole argument misses the key problem with universal health care run by the government. First of all, the government already pays for nearly half of the health care consumed in this country. Because it is the biggest buyer, it probably sets the prices and compensation level of most in the industry. (How else would nurses in California, who earn more than $100K per year threaten to strike because LVN's were going to be used to spell RN's on break. Their employer wouldn't have argued except there were not RN's to hire. Obviously, it's easy to pass along the costs, no matter how exhorbitant.) And when was the last time any government subsidy reduced the price of anything? The government fee for service model, where heroic solutions are paid for with little question, is what's made the cost per capita for health care twice as high as other industrialized nations. Does anyone expect the government to do a better job at cost control when it controls the whole pie rather than half the pie? I think this hole argument misses the key problem with universal health care run by the government. First of all, the government already pays for nearly half of the health care consumed in this country. Because it is the biggest buyer, it probably sets the prices and compensation level of most in the industry. (How else would nurses in California, who earn more than $100K per year threaten to strike because LVN’s were going to be used to spell RN’s on break. Their employer wouldn’t have argued except there were not RN’s to hire. Obviously, it’s easy to pass along the costs, no matter how exhorbitant.) And when was the last time any government subsidy reduced the price of anything? The government fee for service model, where heroic solutions are paid for with little question, is what’s made the cost per capita for health care twice as high as other industrialized nations. Does anyone expect the government to do a better job at cost control when it controls the whole pie rather than half the pie?

]]> By: ben http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2009/01/more-recognition-of-the-health-care-trojan-horse.html/comment-page-1#comment-15655 ben Wed, 07 Jan 2009 18:44:20 +0000 http://www.coyoteblog.com/?p=6788#comment-15655 <i>Anyone who makes poor lifestyle choices should pay the price himself or rely on voluntary charity, not demand that the government pay for his choices. Does anyone have a particular argument with that?</i> I have a problem with it. Well, only of a fairly trivial kind. Who says healthy eating and exercise are "good" and high calorie food is "bad". That makes sense only if you define good as being whatever prolongs life, and bad whatever shortens it. But that's simply a matter of personal taste. Is there any reason not to think the choice to eat high calorie food and not exercise is simply the product of a rational cost-benefit calculation. The great thing about that choice of lifestyle is that you get to go straight home or straight out after work and eat and drink whatever it is that you feel like. Personally, I enjoy that lifestyle about half the time. The other half I am in the gym and eating healthy. I have a year on and a year off. Who but me is to say which cycle is good and which is bad? Anyone who makes poor lifestyle choices should pay the price himself or rely on voluntary charity, not demand that the government pay for his choices.

Does anyone have a particular argument with that?

I have a problem with it. Well, only of a fairly trivial kind. Who says healthy eating and exercise are “good” and high calorie food is “bad”. That makes sense only if you define good as being whatever prolongs life, and bad whatever shortens it. But that’s simply a matter of personal taste. Is there any reason not to think the choice to eat high calorie food and not exercise is simply the product of a rational cost-benefit calculation. The great thing about that choice of lifestyle is that you get to go straight home or straight out after work and eat and drink whatever it is that you feel like.

Personally, I enjoy that lifestyle about half the time. The other half I am in the gym and eating healthy. I have a year on and a year off. Who but me is to say which cycle is good and which is bad?

]]> By: Geoff http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2009/01/more-recognition-of-the-health-care-trojan-horse.html/comment-page-1#comment-15654 Geoff Wed, 07 Jan 2009 18:38:45 +0000 http://www.coyoteblog.com/?p=6788#comment-15654 Actually I remember from a BBC Radio4 discussion, paradoxically, its in the government interest to promote unhealthy living - the biggest drain on resources will be oldies who live longest. Lung cancer patients, as one example, apparently only live for 1 year or so from diagnosis and consume few NHS resources! Actually I remember from a BBC Radio4 discussion, paradoxically, its in the government interest to promote unhealthy living – the biggest drain on resources will be oldies who live longest.

Lung cancer patients, as one example, apparently only live for 1 year or so from diagnosis and consume few NHS resources!

]]> By: Noumenon http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2009/01/more-recognition-of-the-health-care-trojan-horse.html/comment-page-1#comment-15653 Noumenon Wed, 07 Jan 2009 18:25:54 +0000 http://www.coyoteblog.com/?p=6788#comment-15653 Hm, I'm not seeing my post and I had a sentence to add at the end, so here it is again. If you ask me, there's villain music playing when she says that. <i>OK, the Golden Compass lines I wanted start about the 3:00 minute mark in this video. </i> You can link directly to any point in a youtube video by adding this anchor to the end: #t=3m0s (for the 3:00 mark). For example, here's me linking directly to the neat magical carriage at 3:54 -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVTyfNBFnOk&feature=related#t=3m54s I don't know how to do this for embedded videos, though. Hm, I’m not seeing my post and I had a sentence to add at the end, so here it is again.

If you ask me, there’s villain music playing when she says that.

OK, the Golden Compass lines I wanted start about the 3:00 minute mark in this video.

You can link directly to any point in a youtube video by adding this anchor to the end: #t=3m0s (for the 3:00 mark). For example, here’s me linking directly to the neat magical carriage at 3:54 –

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVTyfNBFnOk&feature=related#t=3m54s

I don’t know how to do this for embedded videos, though.

]]> By: Noumenon http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2009/01/more-recognition-of-the-health-care-trojan-horse.html/comment-page-1#comment-15652 Noumenon Wed, 07 Jan 2009 18:22:41 +0000 http://www.coyoteblog.com/?p=6788#comment-15652 If you ask me, there's villain music playing when she says that. <i>OK, the Golden Compass lines I wanted start about the 3:00 minute mark in this video. </i> You can link directly to any point in a youtube video by adding this anchor to the end: #t=3m0s (for the 3:00 mark). For example, here's me linking directly to the neat magical carriage at 3:54 -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVTyfNBFnOk&feature=related#t=3m54s If you ask me, there’s villain music playing when she says that.

OK, the Golden Compass lines I wanted start about the 3:00 minute mark in this video.

You can link directly to any point in a youtube video by adding this anchor to the end: #t=3m0s (for the 3:00 mark). For example, here’s me linking directly to the neat magical carriage at 3:54 –

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVTyfNBFnOk&feature=related#t=3m54s

]]> By: Scott S http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2009/01/more-recognition-of-the-health-care-trojan-horse.html/comment-page-1#comment-15651 Scott S Wed, 07 Jan 2009 17:52:22 +0000 http://www.coyoteblog.com/?p=6788#comment-15651 What else is there to say? The thing is, any lie the socialists give about caring about "real choice" or "real freedom" (or equivalent nonsense that ends up violating individual rights for the sake of the group), can be met by the fact that in a free market any consensual contract can exist. If a group of people want to pool their money for health goods/services, and in return want a regulatory body that restricts what they can eat or how they live (so long as they willingly abide by the contractual stipulations), then go for it - no one should use force to stop you from letting another person hold your hand through life. The irony is that these government programs are claimed to be needed because people don't care enough about others to ensure their well-being. And yet these socialist schemes are predicated on twisting people's natural care for others (you don't want uninsured to die in the streets, do you?) in order to implement force over all. They have learned from history; there's no need for a military coup or personality cults and prison camps. Just enslave people by using their good intentions against them. Of course it helps to make sure the main source of education fosters uncritical thinking toward government, which makes public schooling a definite success by that measure. If there can be any sort of justice when health socialism is implemented in the US, it's that the family of those who hold the levers are the ones left to sit in the emergency room for 12 hours, because the supply/demand curve has been ignored. But we all know their needs will be cared for. Because although everyone is equal, some are more equal than others. What else is there to say? The thing is, any lie the socialists give about caring about “real choice” or “real freedom” (or equivalent nonsense that ends up violating individual rights for the sake of the group), can be met by the fact that in a free market any consensual contract can exist. If a group of people want to pool their money for health goods/services, and in return want a regulatory body that restricts what they can eat or how they live (so long as they willingly abide by the contractual stipulations), then go for it – no one should use force to stop you from letting another person hold your hand through life.

The irony is that these government programs are claimed to be needed because people don’t care enough about others to ensure their well-being. And yet these socialist schemes are predicated on twisting people’s natural care for others (you don’t want uninsured to die in the streets, do you?) in order to implement force over all. They have learned from history; there’s no need for a military coup or personality cults and prison camps. Just enslave people by using their good intentions against them. Of course it helps to make sure the main source of education fosters uncritical thinking toward government, which makes public schooling a definite success by that measure.

If there can be any sort of justice when health socialism is implemented in the US, it’s that the family of those who hold the levers are the ones left to sit in the emergency room for 12 hours, because the supply/demand curve has been ignored. But we all know their needs will be cared for. Because although everyone is equal, some are more equal than others.

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