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	<title>Comments on: Taxing People With No Money</title>
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	<link>http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2008/11/taxing-people-with-no-money.html</link>
	<description>Dispatches from a Small Business</description>
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		<title>By: curtis</title>
		<link>http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2008/11/taxing-people-with-no-money.html/comment-page-1#comment-14540</link>
		<dc:creator>curtis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2008 08:42:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.warrenmeyer.net/coyote_blog/2008/11/taxing-people-with-no-money.html#comment-14540</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I am not sure why you are blasting the &quot;productivity&quot; of Europe.  After all, most Western European countries produce far more per worker per hour than their American counterparts.  Look at Norway, France, Denmark and Germany for examples.  You simply imply that Europe is less productive, when this is obviously not the case.  Europeans in general work far fewer hours, so total output is lower; but if we look deeper at a more meaningful productivity, Europe is doing quite well.  Why this unfair European bashing all the time on this blog?  I am an American running a small business in Europe (relocated here ten years ago, living with my norwegian wife) and find much of your Euro-bashing to be ill-informed.  If you ever want to talk about how business is truly run in Europe (I am familiar with the Scandanavian countries, France and Switzerland), productivity of workers, fair minimum wage or other relevant topics, just get in touch with me:  curtis_rojak(at)yahoo.com.  The debate could be interesting and informative for both of us.&lt;/p&gt;

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am not sure why you are blasting the &#8220;productivity&#8221; of Europe.  After all, most Western European countries produce far more per worker per hour than their American counterparts.  Look at Norway, France, Denmark and Germany for examples.  You simply imply that Europe is less productive, when this is obviously not the case.  Europeans in general work far fewer hours, so total output is lower; but if we look deeper at a more meaningful productivity, Europe is doing quite well.  Why this unfair European bashing all the time on this blog?  I am an American running a small business in Europe (relocated here ten years ago, living with my norwegian wife) and find much of your Euro-bashing to be ill-informed.  If you ever want to talk about how business is truly run in Europe (I am familiar with the Scandanavian countries, France and Switzerland), productivity of workers, fair minimum wage or other relevant topics, just get in touch with me:  curtis_rojak(at)yahoo.com.  The debate could be interesting and informative for both of us.</p>
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		<title>By: Dixon Cox</title>
		<link>http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2008/11/taxing-people-with-no-money.html/comment-page-1#comment-14539</link>
		<dc:creator>Dixon Cox</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Nov 2008 15:55:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.warrenmeyer.net/coyote_blog/2008/11/taxing-people-with-no-money.html#comment-14539</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;It appears as though the link in the &quot;PPS&quot; about the pledge on taxes has been removed, perhaps to be replaced by something a bit more palatable for the taxpayers.  Thankfully, Google and WebCite have saved the contents forever.  It&#039;s archived at http://www.webcitation.org/5cEKJg9Ee&lt;/p&gt;

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It appears as though the link in the &#8220;PPS&#8221; about the pledge on taxes has been removed, perhaps to be replaced by something a bit more palatable for the taxpayers.  Thankfully, Google and WebCite have saved the contents forever.  It&#8217;s archived at <a href="http://www.webcitation.org/5cEKJg9Ee" rel="nofollow">http://www.webcitation.org/5cEKJg9Ee</a></p>
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		<title>By: Lioren</title>
		<link>http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2008/11/taxing-people-with-no-money.html/comment-page-1#comment-14538</link>
		<dc:creator>Lioren</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Nov 2008 04:38:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.warrenmeyer.net/coyote_blog/2008/11/taxing-people-with-no-money.html#comment-14538</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;1. please get with the program: it is not &#039;Brown Shirts&#039;. Use &quot;Earth Shirts&quot; instead.&lt;br /&gt;
2. To avoid Godwin&#039;s &#039;law&#039; use &quot;ObamaYouth&quot;. However, most likely the Obamayouth nym will be a &#039;gaia&#039; phrase like &quot;One Earth Youth&quot; or &quot;GreenTeam&quot;. Nice and neutral, and no alarm bells.&lt;br /&gt;
3. &#039;Heil Obama&#039; is too euro/german/icki. &quot;Obama Save Us&quot; or &quot;Praise Obama&quot; will be more acceptable, please adjust your rhetoric. (Although, &quot;Obama! We serve!!&quot; has a nice jackbooty feel to it)&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Really people, if ya wanna survive the next decade, ya better use Orthodox terminology regarding yer new civil religion.&lt;br /&gt;
end sarc&lt;/p&gt;

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>1. please get with the program: it is not &#8216;Brown Shirts&#8217;. Use &#8220;Earth Shirts&#8221; instead.<br />
2. To avoid Godwin&#8217;s &#8216;law&#8217; use &#8220;ObamaYouth&#8221;. However, most likely the Obamayouth nym will be a &#8216;gaia&#8217; phrase like &#8220;One Earth Youth&#8221; or &#8220;GreenTeam&#8221;. Nice and neutral, and no alarm bells.<br />
3. &#8216;Heil Obama&#8217; is too euro/german/icki. &#8220;Obama Save Us&#8221; or &#8220;Praise Obama&#8221; will be more acceptable, please adjust your rhetoric. (Although, &#8220;Obama! We serve!!&#8221; has a nice jackbooty feel to it)</p>
<p>Really people, if ya wanna survive the next decade, ya better use Orthodox terminology regarding yer new civil religion.<br />
end sarc</p>
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		<title>By: Scrapiron</title>
		<link>http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2008/11/taxing-people-with-no-money.html/comment-page-1#comment-14537</link>
		<dc:creator>Scrapiron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Nov 2008 01:55:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.warrenmeyer.net/coyote_blog/2008/11/taxing-people-with-no-money.html#comment-14537</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Actually Hussein proposed to give each college student $4,000 for 100 hours of forced labor. At $40 per hour they would earn more than the employee&#039;s at whatever enterprize they would be forced to work. Someone had a brain fart when they came up with the program. It has now been changed by the Hussein brown shirts to a &#039;volunteer&#039; program. &lt;br /&gt;
Someone told me that all democrats hold their farts in until the pressure builds up and travels up the spine to the brain. That&#039;s how they get all of their sh***y ideas.&lt;/p&gt;

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually Hussein proposed to give each college student $4,000 for 100 hours of forced labor. At $40 per hour they would earn more than the employee&#8217;s at whatever enterprize they would be forced to work. Someone had a brain fart when they came up with the program. It has now been changed by the Hussein brown shirts to a &#8216;volunteer&#8217; program. <br />
Someone told me that all democrats hold their farts in until the pressure builds up and travels up the spine to the brain. That&#8217;s how they get all of their sh***y ideas.</p>
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		<title>By: Methinks</title>
		<link>http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2008/11/taxing-people-with-no-money.html/comment-page-1#comment-14536</link>
		<dc:creator>Methinks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Nov 2008 19:40:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.warrenmeyer.net/coyote_blog/2008/11/taxing-people-with-no-money.html#comment-14536</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;&lt;i&gt;anyone have a good argument against requiring say 10 hours a week of community service of those of working age receiving government unemployment benefits?&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;It diverts time and energy from actual productive activity - studying, learning useful skills and finding gainful employment.  It also makes people accustomed to the belief that it is the job of government to &quot;create jobs&quot;.  Unfortunately for us, government ditch digging programs don&#039;t create wealth and paying these people will require taxing productive members of society, reducing their incentives to be productive and decreasing taxable revenue necessary to pay people on government work programs. See where I&#039;m going with this?  Heck, we could cut unemployment to zero if government just employs these people to water the lawn and then we will be in a situation like the soviet union where people pretend to work and the government pretends to pay them&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&lt;i&gt;.receive a universal and fully refundable tax credit ensuring that the first $4,000 of their college education is completely free.&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Uh..no.  It&#039;s not free.  They obviously will have to hand out ACORN fliers and submit to Obamabrainwashing to earn the credit.  What is clear is that the value of what they receive and the value of the service they perform are at odds and the wealth taxed away from productive taxpayers to fund this idiocy will be used inefficiently. A more efficient use of those kids&#039; time would be to go find a job and not only be remunerated for their efforts but also learn the meaning of responsibility and accountability to an employer, who is in turn, accountable to its customers.  The student will earn money while learning to please his fellow man.  Who is ACORN accountable to?  Whom does it have to please?  What will the kid learn beyond dogma and propaganda?  This is a funny twist.  Obama wants to pay the college kids for their work but he&#039;s totally against kids working their way through college (as I did - and I lived to tell about it. Oh my).  &lt;/p&gt;

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>anyone have a good argument against requiring say 10 hours a week of community service of those of working age receiving government unemployment benefits?</i></p>
<p>It diverts time and energy from actual productive activity &#8211; studying, learning useful skills and finding gainful employment.  It also makes people accustomed to the belief that it is the job of government to &#8220;create jobs&#8221;.  Unfortunately for us, government ditch digging programs don&#8217;t create wealth and paying these people will require taxing productive members of society, reducing their incentives to be productive and decreasing taxable revenue necessary to pay people on government work programs. See where I&#8217;m going with this?  Heck, we could cut unemployment to zero if government just employs these people to water the lawn and then we will be in a situation like the soviet union where people pretend to work and the government pretends to pay them</p>
<p><i>.receive a universal and fully refundable tax credit ensuring that the first $4,000 of their college education is completely free.</i></p>
<p>Uh..no.  It&#8217;s not free.  They obviously will have to hand out ACORN fliers and submit to Obamabrainwashing to earn the credit.  What is clear is that the value of what they receive and the value of the service they perform are at odds and the wealth taxed away from productive taxpayers to fund this idiocy will be used inefficiently. A more efficient use of those kids&#8217; time would be to go find a job and not only be remunerated for their efforts but also learn the meaning of responsibility and accountability to an employer, who is in turn, accountable to its customers.  The student will earn money while learning to please his fellow man.  Who is ACORN accountable to?  Whom does it have to please?  What will the kid learn beyond dogma and propaganda?  This is a funny twist.  Obama wants to pay the college kids for their work but he&#8217;s totally against kids working their way through college (as I did &#8211; and I lived to tell about it. Oh my).  </p>
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		<title>By: Foxfier</title>
		<link>http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2008/11/taxing-people-with-no-money.html/comment-page-1#comment-14535</link>
		<dc:creator>Foxfier</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Nov 2008 18:36:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.warrenmeyer.net/coyote_blog/2008/11/taxing-people-with-no-money.html#comment-14535</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;TC-&lt;br /&gt;
We&#039;re focusing on the ones that are expressly *required* to do things.&lt;/p&gt;

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>TC-<br />
We&#8217;re focusing on the ones that are expressly *required* to do things.</p>
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		<title>By: xpatUSA</title>
		<link>http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2008/11/taxing-people-with-no-money.html/comment-page-1#comment-14534</link>
		<dc:creator>xpatUSA</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Nov 2008 16:38:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.warrenmeyer.net/coyote_blog/2008/11/taxing-people-with-no-money.html#comment-14534</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;&quot;Obama will call on citizens of all ages to serve America, by developing a plan to require 50 hours of community service in middle school and high school and 100 hours of community service in college every year.&quot;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Have I read it wrongly? Why are most previous posts only talking about kids in school or college, when it says &quot;citizens of all ages&quot;?&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I took it to mean that even I, at the ripe old age of 68, would have to visit a nearby school/college and clean floors or teach physics depending on my quals!&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;T.C.&lt;/p&gt;

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Obama will call on citizens of all ages to serve America, by developing a plan to require 50 hours of community service in middle school and high school and 100 hours of community service in college every year.&#8221;</p>
<p>Have I read it wrongly? Why are most previous posts only talking about kids in school or college, when it says &#8220;citizens of all ages&#8221;?</p>
<p>I took it to mean that even I, at the ripe old age of 68, would have to visit a nearby school/college and clean floors or teach physics depending on my quals!</p>
<p>T.C.</p>
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		<title>By: morganovich</title>
		<link>http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2008/11/taxing-people-with-no-money.html/comment-page-1#comment-14533</link>
		<dc:creator>morganovich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Nov 2008 16:12:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.warrenmeyer.net/coyote_blog/2008/11/taxing-people-with-no-money.html#comment-14533</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;liz-&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;it was not warren who changed the text but obama.  i read the site last night and it was precisely as quoted.  &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I will be interested to see if he plans to extend the reach of this plan to educational institutions encouraging them (through tax treatment and funding) to place the requirements in place in lieu of the government.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I also note that a plan that had no cost associated with it may have just become quite expensive.  there are 16 million college students in the US.  16 million  = $64 billion&lt;br /&gt;
what % will take him up on it, I have not the slightest idea, but we can also look at this plan another way:&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;$4000 for 100 hours of work = $40/hour.  that’s a pretty high pay rate for a 19 year old, and I’m sure many will game the system resulting in a higher actual hourly wage   this is obviously about more than just getting service work done.  if that was the goal, just pay $20/hour.  load of people would sign up.  (though perhaps that sort of WPA system is in the cards as well?)&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I wonder if he will consider extending requirements or inducements such as these to other groups such as welfare recipients.  now THAT seems to me a good idea.  it provides a useful service, keeps people busy and engaged, and discourages milking the system.  welfare and unemployment assistance are not rights, but rather services.  attaching requirements to receiving seems a good idea (assuming you accept they are a good idea to begin with).  anyone have a good argument against requiring say 10 hours a week of community service of those of working age receiving government unemployment benefits?   &lt;/p&gt;

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>liz-</p>
<p>it was not warren who changed the text but obama.  i read the site last night and it was precisely as quoted.  </p>
<p>I will be interested to see if he plans to extend the reach of this plan to educational institutions encouraging them (through tax treatment and funding) to place the requirements in place in lieu of the government.</p>
<p>I also note that a plan that had no cost associated with it may have just become quite expensive.  there are 16 million college students in the US.  16 million  = $64 billion<br />
what % will take him up on it, I have not the slightest idea, but we can also look at this plan another way:</p>
<p>$4000 for 100 hours of work = $40/hour.  that’s a pretty high pay rate for a 19 year old, and I’m sure many will game the system resulting in a higher actual hourly wage   this is obviously about more than just getting service work done.  if that was the goal, just pay $20/hour.  load of people would sign up.  (though perhaps that sort of WPA system is in the cards as well?)</p>
<p>I wonder if he will consider extending requirements or inducements such as these to other groups such as welfare recipients.  now THAT seems to me a good idea.  it provides a useful service, keeps people busy and engaged, and discourages milking the system.  welfare and unemployment assistance are not rights, but rather services.  attaching requirements to receiving seems a good idea (assuming you accept they are a good idea to begin with).  anyone have a good argument against requiring say 10 hours a week of community service of those of working age receiving government unemployment benefits?   </p>
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		<title>By: drogen</title>
		<link>http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2008/11/taxing-people-with-no-money.html/comment-page-1#comment-14532</link>
		<dc:creator>drogen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Nov 2008 10:12:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.warrenmeyer.net/coyote_blog/2008/11/taxing-people-with-no-money.html#comment-14532</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;There&#039;s irony in an American black man re-introducing slavery. No?&lt;/p&gt;

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There&#8217;s irony in an American black man re-introducing slavery. No?</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin</title>
		<link>http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2008/11/taxing-people-with-no-money.html/comment-page-1#comment-14531</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Nov 2008 08:17:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.warrenmeyer.net/coyote_blog/2008/11/taxing-people-with-no-money.html#comment-14531</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;A NORMAL tax credit can be used to offset one&#039;s tax liability, period. It can bring down your tax liability to zero, and that is it. A REFUNDABLE tax credit, on the other hand, means you receive back the ENTIRE credit whether or not you even had a tax liability in the first place. In this case, someone who owes no taxes, and who paid no taxes during the year, would nevertheless file a return and receive a fat $4000 check from the Treasury Department. That is a refundable tax credit. It is best thought of, seems to me, as a form of welfare that simply uses the IRS system as the distribution channel; and, certainly, it is government spending as opposed to not-taxing.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;/p&gt;

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A NORMAL tax credit can be used to offset one&#8217;s tax liability, period. It can bring down your tax liability to zero, and that is it. A REFUNDABLE tax credit, on the other hand, means you receive back the ENTIRE credit whether or not you even had a tax liability in the first place. In this case, someone who owes no taxes, and who paid no taxes during the year, would nevertheless file a return and receive a fat $4000 check from the Treasury Department. That is a refundable tax credit. It is best thought of, seems to me, as a form of welfare that simply uses the IRS system as the distribution channel; and, certainly, it is government spending as opposed to not-taxing.</p>
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