Comments on: Grass Roots Efforts to Impose Socialism http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2008/10/grass-roots-eff.html Dispatches from a Small Business Sun, 12 Feb 2012 09:39:47 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: John Dewey http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2008/10/grass-roots-eff.html/comment-page-1#comment-14070 John Dewey Tue, 07 Oct 2008 13:02:20 +0000 http://coyote-blog.com/wordpress/2008/10/grass-roots-eff.html#comment-14070 <p>Zoning laws only arose in the early 20th century for a simple reason - the laws were not needed before the use of motor vehicles.</p> <p>Heavy industry has always been dependent on freight transportation. When trains and ships provided freight transport, heavy obnoxious industries were concentrated around wharves and railhead terminals. Those who desired relief from urban industry simply used carriages or streetcars to commute from the suburbs.</p> <p>Motorized trucking changed the economics for heavy industry. Businesses could forego the expensive industrial sectors close to wharves and train stations. Nuisance laws had been sufficient to segregate obnoxious industry from residences - to handle the few exceptions to industrial concentration. But opportunities made possible by the motorized freight truck quickly overwhelmed the ability of nuisance laws to prevent the intrusion of noise and pollution in residential sectors. </p> <p>IMO, zoning is a much more efficient method for separating residences from industrial noise and pollution than would be the uncertainty and cost of lawsuits. I think businesses prefer to know that use for land they purchase or lease are not likely to be challenged in court.</p> <p>Libertarians may argue that individual rights trump all community planning - but I don't agree in the case of zoning laws. Of course, planners have gone too far, and either courts or legislators must protect and balance rights of all parties.</p> Zoning laws only arose in the early 20th century for a simple reason – the laws were not needed before the use of motor vehicles.

Heavy industry has always been dependent on freight transportation. When trains and ships provided freight transport, heavy obnoxious industries were concentrated around wharves and railhead terminals. Those who desired relief from urban industry simply used carriages or streetcars to commute from the suburbs.

Motorized trucking changed the economics for heavy industry. Businesses could forego the expensive industrial sectors close to wharves and train stations. Nuisance laws had been sufficient to segregate obnoxious industry from residences – to handle the few exceptions to industrial concentration. But opportunities made possible by the motorized freight truck quickly overwhelmed the ability of nuisance laws to prevent the intrusion of noise and pollution in residential sectors.

IMO, zoning is a much more efficient method for separating residences from industrial noise and pollution than would be the uncertainty and cost of lawsuits. I think businesses prefer to know that use for land they purchase or lease are not likely to be challenged in court.

Libertarians may argue that individual rights trump all community planning – but I don’t agree in the case of zoning laws. Of course, planners have gone too far, and either courts or legislators must protect and balance rights of all parties.

]]> By: Miklos Hollender http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2008/10/grass-roots-eff.html/comment-page-1#comment-14069 Miklos Hollender Tue, 07 Oct 2008 10:59:06 +0000 http://coyote-blog.com/wordpress/2008/10/grass-roots-eff.html#comment-14069 <p>"For centuries we have had a perfectly serviceable approach for determining who gets to decide what gets built on a piece of land: ownership."</p> <p>Not quite. You could complain and win in court if a neighbour built something on his land that seriously disturbs you in a justifiable way.</p> “For centuries we have had a perfectly serviceable approach for determining who gets to decide what gets built on a piece of land: ownership.”

Not quite. You could complain and win in court if a neighbour built something on his land that seriously disturbs you in a justifiable way.

]]> By: Sol http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2008/10/grass-roots-eff.html/comment-page-1#comment-14068 Sol Mon, 06 Oct 2008 19:05:42 +0000 http://coyote-blog.com/wordpress/2008/10/grass-roots-eff.html#comment-14068 <p>It seems like half the local stories in our newspaper are about how great it would be if our fair city had a higher density, and the other half are about large residential projects (mostly downtown apartments) being denied zoning variances to start construction despite approval from the city planning commission.</p> It seems like half the local stories in our newspaper are about how great it would be if our fair city had a higher density, and the other half are about large residential projects (mostly downtown apartments) being denied zoning variances to start construction despite approval from the city planning commission.

]]> By: ElamBend http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2008/10/grass-roots-eff.html/comment-page-1#comment-14067 ElamBend Mon, 06 Oct 2008 17:19:45 +0000 http://coyote-blog.com/wordpress/2008/10/grass-roots-eff.html#comment-14067 <p>Curtis, <br /> Zoning laws are barely a century old (they really gained steam in the 19-teens). </p> <p>Coyote,<br /> I think you're being a bit too hard on the ballot-boxers in this instance, they thought they already had control through their elected city-council, only to find out that someone better connected had more leverage. In their eyes, the referendum is simply a proxy to regain the 'right' of control they thought already existed through the city council. </p> <p>AS for high-density development. I personally love living in high-density areas (hence I'm in downtown Chicago), what I never understood about many high-density proponents (and new urbanist) is their belief that such projects could be just parachuted into an area with no consideration of the surroundings. High-density areas work when they grow and exist organically. That was one of the lessons of Jane Jacobs. A true walk-up cafe needs a lot of foot traffic, something you won't get in 27-acre high density development plopped down into a suburban setting.</p> Curtis,
Zoning laws are barely a century old (they really gained steam in the 19-teens).

Coyote,
I think you’re being a bit too hard on the ballot-boxers in this instance, they thought they already had control through their elected city-council, only to find out that someone better connected had more leverage. In their eyes, the referendum is simply a proxy to regain the ‘right’ of control they thought already existed through the city council.

AS for high-density development. I personally love living in high-density areas (hence I’m in downtown Chicago), what I never understood about many high-density proponents (and new urbanist) is their belief that such projects could be just parachuted into an area with no consideration of the surroundings. High-density areas work when they grow and exist organically. That was one of the lessons of Jane Jacobs. A true walk-up cafe needs a lot of foot traffic, something you won’t get in 27-acre high density development plopped down into a suburban setting.

]]> By: dearieme http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2008/10/grass-roots-eff.html/comment-page-1#comment-14066 dearieme Mon, 06 Oct 2008 14:50:09 +0000 http://coyote-blog.com/wordpress/2008/10/grass-roots-eff.html#comment-14066 <p>Where I live, your neighbour can muck up land drainage and turn your patch into a bog. Suing afterwards is slim consolation, particularly if the culprit is a corporation which can outspend you at law, or, indeed, go bust and leave you to whistle for compensation.</p> Where I live, your neighbour can muck up land drainage and turn your patch into a bog. Suing afterwards is slim consolation, particularly if the culprit is a corporation which can outspend you at law, or, indeed, go bust and leave you to whistle for compensation.

]]> By: curtis http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2008/10/grass-roots-eff.html/comment-page-1#comment-14065 curtis Mon, 06 Oct 2008 14:41:21 +0000 http://coyote-blog.com/wordpress/2008/10/grass-roots-eff.html#comment-14065 <p>"For centuries we have had a perfectly serviceable approach for determining who gets to decide what gets built on a piece of land: ownership. If one wanted to control a property, she/he bought it." I find this statement a poor conclusion, since zoning rules have existed since the birth of our country. Plenty of cities in the 19th century had some sort of zoning, so it is hard to argue that simple ownership is the only determinate of what gets built on a piece of land. This posting on the Coyote blog seems a bit simplistic to me, but nonetheless brings up an interesting topic which is sure to interest many. </p> “For centuries we have had a perfectly serviceable approach for determining who gets to decide what gets built on a piece of land: ownership. If one wanted to control a property, she/he bought it.” I find this statement a poor conclusion, since zoning rules have existed since the birth of our country. Plenty of cities in the 19th century had some sort of zoning, so it is hard to argue that simple ownership is the only determinate of what gets built on a piece of land. This posting on the Coyote blog seems a bit simplistic to me, but nonetheless brings up an interesting topic which is sure to interest many.

]]> By: John Dewey http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2008/10/grass-roots-eff.html/comment-page-1#comment-14064 John Dewey Mon, 06 Oct 2008 11:19:28 +0000 http://coyote-blog.com/wordpress/2008/10/grass-roots-eff.html#comment-14064 <p>Dave, have you spent any time in the desert around Phoenix? Have you ever sat on a backyard patio surrounded by saguaro, ocotillo, paloverde, and cholla? Did you ever sit quietly at dawn or dusk and observe the desert fauna attracted to the pond built in such a backyard? I've seen rabbits, coyotes, bobcats, mice, ground squirrels, snakes, lizards, iguanas, a dozen or more varieties of birds, colorful butterflies, and much more in the backyards of homes I've rented. </p> <p>Check out some of these Arizona desert landscapes and tell me why desert residents woldn't want these:</p> <p>http://www.bloomingdesert.com/portfolio-landscapes.html</p> Dave, have you spent any time in the desert around Phoenix? Have you ever sat on a backyard patio surrounded by saguaro, ocotillo, paloverde, and cholla? Did you ever sit quietly at dawn or dusk and observe the desert fauna attracted to the pond built in such a backyard? I’ve seen rabbits, coyotes, bobcats, mice, ground squirrels, snakes, lizards, iguanas, a dozen or more varieties of birds, colorful butterflies, and much more in the backyards of homes I’ve rented.

Check out some of these Arizona desert landscapes and tell me why desert residents woldn’t want these:

http://www.bloomingdesert.com/portfolio-landscapes.html

]]> By: Dave http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2008/10/grass-roots-eff.html/comment-page-1#comment-14063 Dave Sun, 05 Oct 2008 22:24:21 +0000 http://coyote-blog.com/wordpress/2008/10/grass-roots-eff.html#comment-14063 <p>Why, if you live in a desert, would you want or expect a "back yard"? Seems more trouble than it's worth (and I'm not talking here about the environmental effects of having a yard in a dessicated environment, as I care not a whit about either the environment or environmentalists).</p> Why, if you live in a desert, would you want or expect a “back yard”? Seems more trouble than it’s worth (and I’m not talking here about the environmental effects of having a yard in a dessicated environment, as I care not a whit about either the environment or environmentalists).

]]> By: John Moore http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2008/10/grass-roots-eff.html/comment-page-1#comment-14062 John Moore Sun, 05 Oct 2008 19:55:06 +0000 http://coyote-blog.com/wordpress/2008/10/grass-roots-eff.html#comment-14062 <p>Zoning is an area I'm a bit conflicted on.</p> <p>The idea that "I can do with my property as I want" conflicts with the concept of externalities. </p> <p>Can you test high explosives in your back yard?</p> <p>How about maintaining fire hazards?</p> <p>How about selling pornography (the issue being the sort of people it would bring to the neighborhood, not the ethics of pornography)?</p> <p>How about a building that represents a safety hazard to yourself?</p> <p>How about a building that represents a safety hazard to your neighbor?</p> <p>How about blocking someone's view?</p> <p>How about having rusting cars in your front yard?</p> <p>What if I erect a ham radio antenna (I'm NJ7E, btw).</p> <p>I raise these examples to show that it is a slope - there isn't a strong absolute that I can see. In Europe, you can find many areas where no zoning exists. I lived in one in Suresnes, France for a while. Housing, shops, factories all mixed together.</p> <p>-------------</p> <p>The trend, starting in the '70s, to treat one's home as the major investment asset mad this much worse. Now, if I paint my house an ugly color, it affects the resale value of neighboring houses - a more inmportant issue than in the psat.</p> <p>One response to this was a very onerous "free market" approach - Home Owner's Associations. These groups make zoning seem like a minor restriction on your freedom. Of course, you enter them "voluntarily." After all, it's just a contract tied to the property. On the other hand, try to find a new home in a Phoenix area development that allows me to put up a ham antenna. Not a chance!</p> <p>Anyway, back to zoning.... obviously assetization of one's homes made the push for zoning even stronger.</p> <p>Likewise, the fading of American indiviualism made it easier to do.</p> <p>And, of course, there's always corruption in the process - worsened in effect as government is goven more power.</p> Zoning is an area I’m a bit conflicted on.

The idea that “I can do with my property as I want” conflicts with the concept of externalities.

Can you test high explosives in your back yard?

How about maintaining fire hazards?

How about selling pornography (the issue being the sort of people it would bring to the neighborhood, not the ethics of pornography)?

How about a building that represents a safety hazard to yourself?

How about a building that represents a safety hazard to your neighbor?

How about blocking someone’s view?

How about having rusting cars in your front yard?

What if I erect a ham radio antenna (I’m NJ7E, btw).

I raise these examples to show that it is a slope – there isn’t a strong absolute that I can see. In Europe, you can find many areas where no zoning exists. I lived in one in Suresnes, France for a while. Housing, shops, factories all mixed together.

————-

The trend, starting in the ’70s, to treat one’s home as the major investment asset mad this much worse. Now, if I paint my house an ugly color, it affects the resale value of neighboring houses – a more inmportant issue than in the psat.

One response to this was a very onerous “free market” approach – Home Owner’s Associations. These groups make zoning seem like a minor restriction on your freedom. Of course, you enter them “voluntarily.” After all, it’s just a contract tied to the property. On the other hand, try to find a new home in a Phoenix area development that allows me to put up a ham antenna. Not a chance!

Anyway, back to zoning…. obviously assetization of one’s homes made the push for zoning even stronger.

Likewise, the fading of American indiviualism made it easier to do.

And, of course, there’s always corruption in the process – worsened in effect as government is goven more power.

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