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	<title>Comments on: Next Step for Author of AZ Employer Sanctions:  Target the Babies</title>
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	<link>http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2008/01/next-step-for-a.html</link>
	<description>Dispatches from a Small Business</description>
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		<title>By: skh.pcola</title>
		<link>http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2008/01/next-step-for-a.html/comment-page-1#comment-9113</link>
		<dc:creator>skh.pcola</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jan 2008 17:19:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://coyote-blog.com/wordpress/2008/01/next-step-for-a.html#comment-9113</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Huh.  Feature that.  My point is that, even among the legal cognoscenti, there isn&#039;t consensus on exactly what &quot;subject to the jurisdiction thereof&quot; means.  It is a rhetorical trick to assign labels such as &quot;outrageous&quot; to the opinion that anchor babies should automatically be conferred citizenship status.  As ever, one&#039;s confirmation bias provides some guidance when searching for answers, and I am more convinced by arguments against the concept, while Gabriel and several others here opine in the opposite direction.  As the issue becomes more pressing, Congress will have to address it, and SCOTUS will have to interpret the troublesome portion of the 14th Amendment.  &lt;/p&gt;

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Huh.  Feature that.  My point is that, even among the legal cognoscenti, there isn&#8217;t consensus on exactly what &#8220;subject to the jurisdiction thereof&#8221; means.  It is a rhetorical trick to assign labels such as &#8220;outrageous&#8221; to the opinion that anchor babies should automatically be conferred citizenship status.  As ever, one&#8217;s confirmation bias provides some guidance when searching for answers, and I am more convinced by arguments against the concept, while Gabriel and several others here opine in the opposite direction.  As the issue becomes more pressing, Congress will have to address it, and SCOTUS will have to interpret the troublesome portion of the 14th Amendment.  </p>
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		<title>By: skh.pcola</title>
		<link>http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2008/01/next-step-for-a.html/comment-page-1#comment-9112</link>
		<dc:creator>skh.pcola</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jan 2008 01:36:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://coyote-blog.com/wordpress/2008/01/next-step-for-a.html#comment-9112</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Gabriel, I don&#039;t think that you ever responded to my last comment on the AoS thread.  You are doing the same thing here:  claim an interpretation that you disagree with is &quot;outrageous,&quot; and you are stubbornly stuck on your idea of what &quot;subject to the jurisdiction thereof&quot; means.  &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Here is the pertinent portion of my comment:&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Gabriel, I found this from a professor of law, who said it in testimony in front of the Committee on the Judiciary of the US House of Representatives: &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&lt;i&gt;As I argued in the brief I filed on behalf of The Claremont &lt;br /&gt;
Institute Center for Constitutional Jurisprudence in the case, the received wisdom &lt;br /&gt;
regarding the Citizenship Clause is incorrect, as a matter of text, historical practice, and &lt;br /&gt;
political theory. As an original matter, mere birth on U.S. soil alone was insufficient to &lt;br /&gt;
confer citizenship as a matter of constitutional right. &lt;/i&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Linky: http://judiciary.house.gov/media/pdfs/eastman092905.pdf&lt;/p&gt;

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gabriel, I don&#8217;t think that you ever responded to my last comment on the AoS thread.  You are doing the same thing here:  claim an interpretation that you disagree with is &#8220;outrageous,&#8221; and you are stubbornly stuck on your idea of what &#8220;subject to the jurisdiction thereof&#8221; means.  </p>
<p>Here is the pertinent portion of my comment:</p>
<p>Gabriel, I found this from a professor of law, who said it in testimony in front of the Committee on the Judiciary of the US House of Representatives: </p>
<p><i>As I argued in the brief I filed on behalf of The Claremont <br />
Institute Center for Constitutional Jurisprudence in the case, the received wisdom <br />
regarding the Citizenship Clause is incorrect, as a matter of text, historical practice, and <br />
political theory. As an original matter, mere birth on U.S. soil alone was insufficient to <br />
confer citizenship as a matter of constitutional right. </i></p>
<p>Linky: <a href="http://judiciary.house.gov/media/pdfs/eastman092905.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://judiciary.house.gov/media/pdfs/eastman092905.pdf</a></p>
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		<title>By: nicole</title>
		<link>http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2008/01/next-step-for-a.html/comment-page-1#comment-9111</link>
		<dc:creator>nicole</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jan 2008 06:00:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://coyote-blog.com/wordpress/2008/01/next-step-for-a.html#comment-9111</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;There is a key part of that sentence, and it is &quot;subject to the jurisdiction thereof.&quot; This means that the children born of people who legally enter the U.S. and are subject to the jurisdiction of these United States are citizens.&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;But there was nothing in that first sentence about &quot;people who legally enter the U.S.&quot; Under this reasoning, since illegal immigrants are not subject to our jurisdiction we would not be able to deport them or even arrest them for committing crimes like murder. This is clearly absurd.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;Illegal aliens who sneak across the U.S. border and have babies on U.S. soil still owe allegiance to their native land. (Indeed, if the evidence is to be believed, many illegal aliens consider themselves loyal citizens of the nations they left. This becomes painfully visible during illegal alien rallies, where one is far more likely to see flags of other nations on display than one is to see the American flag in evidence.)&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;You can say all the same things about legal immigrants as well. My father has had a green card since he was a child but has never chosen to be naturalized. Should I have gotten a funny birth certificate too since he &quot;owes allegiance&quot; to someone else (what that means for practical purposes is extremely unclear), or would my mom have made up for that?&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;They have not petitioned the U.S. for entry, nor have they begun the process of becoming Americans by renouncing their former citizenship. They are therefore not subject to the jurisdiction of the U.S., since they have flouted America&#039;s laws upon entry.&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I will really have to remember this next time I feel like stealing a couple million dollars. I hope it works in other countries too.&lt;/p&gt;

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>There is a key part of that sentence, and it is &#8220;subject to the jurisdiction thereof.&#8221; This means that the children born of people who legally enter the U.S. and are subject to the jurisdiction of these United States are citizens.</em></p>
<p>But there was nothing in that first sentence about &#8220;people who legally enter the U.S.&#8221; Under this reasoning, since illegal immigrants are not subject to our jurisdiction we would not be able to deport them or even arrest them for committing crimes like murder. This is clearly absurd.</p>
<p><em>Illegal aliens who sneak across the U.S. border and have babies on U.S. soil still owe allegiance to their native land. (Indeed, if the evidence is to be believed, many illegal aliens consider themselves loyal citizens of the nations they left. This becomes painfully visible during illegal alien rallies, where one is far more likely to see flags of other nations on display than one is to see the American flag in evidence.)</em></p>
<p>You can say all the same things about legal immigrants as well. My father has had a green card since he was a child but has never chosen to be naturalized. Should I have gotten a funny birth certificate too since he &#8220;owes allegiance&#8221; to someone else (what that means for practical purposes is extremely unclear), or would my mom have made up for that?</p>
<p><em>They have not petitioned the U.S. for entry, nor have they begun the process of becoming Americans by renouncing their former citizenship. They are therefore not subject to the jurisdiction of the U.S., since they have flouted America&#8217;s laws upon entry.</em></p>
<p>I will really have to remember this next time I feel like stealing a couple million dollars. I hope it works in other countries too.</p>
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		<title>By: Phil</title>
		<link>http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2008/01/next-step-for-a.html/comment-page-1#comment-9110</link>
		<dc:creator>Phil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jan 2008 05:34:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://coyote-blog.com/wordpress/2008/01/next-step-for-a.html#comment-9110</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Here is a very extensive article on the subject: &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.vdare.com/sutherland/weigh_anchor.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.vdare.com/sutherland/weigh_anchor.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here is a very extensive article on the subject: <a href="http://www.vdare.com/sutherland/weigh_anchor.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.vdare.com/sutherland/weigh_anchor.htm</a></p>
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		<title>By: Craig</title>
		<link>http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2008/01/next-step-for-a.html/comment-page-1#comment-9109</link>
		<dc:creator>Craig</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jan 2008 03:52:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://coyote-blog.com/wordpress/2008/01/next-step-for-a.html#comment-9109</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;The 14th Amendment was intended to make slaves, not illegal immigrant babies, citizens.  If we operate on original intent, this law would pass Constitutional muster.&lt;/p&gt;

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The 14th Amendment was intended to make slaves, not illegal immigrant babies, citizens.  If we operate on original intent, this law would pass Constitutional muster.</p>
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		<title>By: Gabriel Malor</title>
		<link>http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2008/01/next-step-for-a.html/comment-page-1#comment-9108</link>
		<dc:creator>Gabriel Malor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jan 2008 03:38:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://coyote-blog.com/wordpress/2008/01/next-step-for-a.html#comment-9108</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;This came up the other day. The case you&#039;re looking for is &lt;i&gt;United States v. Wong Kim Ark&lt;/i&gt;. It holds that the 14th Amendment requires that a child born in the United States of alien parents who are subjects of a foreign power but who have a permanent domicile and residence in the United States becomes a citizen of the United States at the time of birth.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;The year was 1898. Yes, that long ago. &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Captain Midnight (and the folks at Heritage who make the same argument) go through the most outrageous legalistic contortions to claim that &quot;subject to the jurisdiction thereof&quot; doesn&#039;t actually mean &quot;subject to the jurisdiction thereof.&quot; &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;The reason that these folks go to such trouble to twist the 14th Amendment out of shape is that it is probably easier to convince a judge of their ideas than to amend the Constitution on this point.&lt;/p&gt;

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This came up the other day. The case you&#8217;re looking for is <i>United States v. Wong Kim Ark</i>. It holds that the 14th Amendment requires that a child born in the United States of alien parents who are subjects of a foreign power but who have a permanent domicile and residence in the United States becomes a citizen of the United States at the time of birth.</p>
<p>The year was 1898. Yes, that long ago. </p>
<p>Captain Midnight (and the folks at Heritage who make the same argument) go through the most outrageous legalistic contortions to claim that &#8220;subject to the jurisdiction thereof&#8221; doesn&#8217;t actually mean &#8220;subject to the jurisdiction thereof.&#8221; </p>
<p>The reason that these folks go to such trouble to twist the 14th Amendment out of shape is that it is probably easier to convince a judge of their ideas than to amend the Constitution on this point.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard</title>
		<link>http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2008/01/next-step-for-a.html/comment-page-1#comment-9107</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jan 2008 02:48:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://coyote-blog.com/wordpress/2008/01/next-step-for-a.html#comment-9107</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;You can see the caselaw on this issue on my post, &lt;a href=&quot;http://grayson-for-congress.blogspot.com/2007/12/ghetto-fabulous-russell-pearce-v-us.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&quot;The Ghetto-Fabulous Russell Pearce v. the Constitution&lt;/a&gt;.&quot;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;No human beings are illegal.&lt;/p&gt;

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You can see the caselaw on this issue on my post, <a href="http://grayson-for-congress.blogspot.com/2007/12/ghetto-fabulous-russell-pearce-v-us.html" rel="nofollow">&#8220;The Ghetto-Fabulous Russell Pearce v. the Constitution</a>.&#8221;</p>
<p>No human beings are illegal.</p>
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		<title>By: Captain Midnight</title>
		<link>http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2008/01/next-step-for-a.html/comment-page-1#comment-9106</link>
		<dc:creator>Captain Midnight</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jan 2008 00:36:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://coyote-blog.com/wordpress/2008/01/next-step-for-a.html#comment-9106</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Here&#039;s part of what &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.captainscomments.com/comments/592.asp&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;I&#039;ve written&lt;/a&gt; on this subject:&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;blockquote&gt;There is a key part of that sentence, and it is &quot;subject to the jurisdiction thereof.&quot; This means that the children born of people who legally enter the U.S. and are subject to the jurisdiction of these United States are citizens. As I read it, the children of illegal aliens are not subject to the jurisdiction of the U.S. (the whole sneaking in bit) and thus are not born U.S. citizens. Here is what Rep. John A. Bingham, the author of the 14th Amendment, said regarding the first sentence:

&lt;blockquote&gt;&quot;I find no fault with the introductory clause, which is simply declaratory of what is written in the Constitution, that every human being born within the jurisdiction of the United States of parents not owing allegiance to any foreign sovereignty is, in the language of your Constitution itself, a natural born citizen.&quot;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Illegal aliens who sneak across the U.S. border and have babies on U.S. soil still owe allegiance to their native land. (Indeed, if the evidence is to be believed, many illegal aliens consider themselves loyal citizens of the nations they left. This becomes painfully visible during illegal alien rallies, where one is far more likely to see flags of other nations on display than one is to see the American flag in evidence.) They have not petitioned the U.S. for entry, nor have they begun the process of becoming Americans by renouncing their former citizenship. They are therefore not subject to the jurisdiction of the U.S., since they have flouted America&#039;s laws upon entry.&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;You can read a long entry on the 14th Amendment at &lt;a href=&quot;http://federalistblog.us/2005/12/birthright_citizenship_fable.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;The Federalist Blog&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;/p&gt;

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here&#8217;s part of what <a href="http://www.captainscomments.com/comments/592.asp" rel="nofollow">I&#8217;ve written</a> on this subject:</p>
<blockquote><p>There is a key part of that sentence, and it is &#8220;subject to the jurisdiction thereof.&#8221; This means that the children born of people who legally enter the U.S. and are subject to the jurisdiction of these United States are citizens. As I read it, the children of illegal aliens are not subject to the jurisdiction of the U.S. (the whole sneaking in bit) and thus are not born U.S. citizens. Here is what Rep. John A. Bingham, the author of the 14th Amendment, said regarding the first sentence:</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;I find no fault with the introductory clause, which is simply declaratory of what is written in the Constitution, that every human being born within the jurisdiction of the United States of parents not owing allegiance to any foreign sovereignty is, in the language of your Constitution itself, a natural born citizen.&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>Illegal aliens who sneak across the U.S. border and have babies on U.S. soil still owe allegiance to their native land. (Indeed, if the evidence is to be believed, many illegal aliens consider themselves loyal citizens of the nations they left. This becomes painfully visible during illegal alien rallies, where one is far more likely to see flags of other nations on display than one is to see the American flag in evidence.) They have not petitioned the U.S. for entry, nor have they begun the process of becoming Americans by renouncing their former citizenship. They are therefore not subject to the jurisdiction of the U.S., since they have flouted America&#8217;s laws upon entry.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>You can read a long entry on the 14th Amendment at <a href="http://federalistblog.us/2005/12/birthright_citizenship_fable.html" rel="nofollow">The Federalist Blog</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Captain Midnight</title>
		<link>http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2008/01/next-step-for-a.html/comment-page-1#comment-9105</link>
		<dc:creator>Captain Midnight</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jan 2008 00:31:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://coyote-blog.com/wordpress/2008/01/next-step-for-a.html#comment-9105</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Ew.  It&#039;s a good idea to strip out the ads from any copy you are quoting.  It&#039;s mighty ugly to see three copies of the same ad lined up.&lt;/p&gt;

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ew.  It&#8217;s a good idea to strip out the ads from any copy you are quoting.  It&#8217;s mighty ugly to see three copies of the same ad lined up.</p>
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		<title>By: Sameer Parekh</title>
		<link>http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2008/01/next-step-for-a.html/comment-page-1#comment-9104</link>
		<dc:creator>Sameer Parekh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jan 2008 00:18:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://coyote-blog.com/wordpress/2008/01/next-step-for-a.html#comment-9104</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;At the Claremont Institute they say that &quot;subject to the jurisdiction thereof&quot; is a social-contract like statement. Both sides have to &quot;sign&quot; the contract. Therefore I think a reasonable case may be able to be made that the phrase refers to legal immigrants, but not illegal ones. Thus you can probably bar illegal immigrant children from getting birthright citizenship. Of course Russell Pearce, nativist that he is, seems to want to prevent all immigrant children from getting citizenship, not just the illegal ones.&lt;/p&gt;

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>At the Claremont Institute they say that &#8220;subject to the jurisdiction thereof&#8221; is a social-contract like statement. Both sides have to &#8220;sign&#8221; the contract. Therefore I think a reasonable case may be able to be made that the phrase refers to legal immigrants, but not illegal ones. Thus you can probably bar illegal immigrant children from getting birthright citizenship. Of course Russell Pearce, nativist that he is, seems to want to prevent all immigrant children from getting citizenship, not just the illegal ones.</p>
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