Comments on: Gun to the Head in Seattle http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2007/11/gun-to-the-head.html Dispatches from a Small Business Sun, 12 Feb 2012 09:39:47 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: The Dirty Mac http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2007/11/gun-to-the-head.html/comment-page-1#comment-8151 The Dirty Mac Mon, 12 Nov 2007 05:47:33 +0000 http://coyote-blog.com/wordpress/2007/11/gun-to-the-head.html#comment-8151 <p>"Still, there are some pretty sizable intangible benefits to having a hometown team."</p> <p>Hey kid, you ever heard of the New York Jets?</p> “Still, there are some pretty sizable intangible benefits to having a hometown team.”

Hey kid, you ever heard of the New York Jets?

]]> By: Anon E. Mouse http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2007/11/gun-to-the-head.html/comment-page-1#comment-8150 Anon E. Mouse Sun, 11 Nov 2007 14:19:57 +0000 http://coyote-blog.com/wordpress/2007/11/gun-to-the-head.html#comment-8150 <p>The "pretty sizable intangible benefits" are sure helping Buffalo, NY.</p> The “pretty sizable intangible benefits” are sure helping Buffalo, NY.

]]> By: AC http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2007/11/gun-to-the-head.html/comment-page-1#comment-8149 AC Sun, 11 Nov 2007 04:28:58 +0000 http://coyote-blog.com/wordpress/2007/11/gun-to-the-head.html#comment-8149 <p>Let me play devil's advocate.</p> <p>I know there are oodles of studies showing that these publicly-funded stadiums do not give cities a reasonable return on investment.</p> <p>Still, there are some pretty sizable intangible benefits to having a hometown team. At least if there is a lot of enthusiasm for the sport and team. A New Yorker can get a lot of pleasure out of following the Yankees even if he only goes to a ballgame once or twice a year. All of this enjoyment is a consumer surplus because it is not captured by ticket sales. And there's an assurance it won't be competed away because the number of teams is artificially limited. </p> <p>Cities know that they will (may) generate a surplus by landing a team. So they bid for the team. Just like any buyer. As long as the aggregate surplus exceeds the price paid (including the disutility caused to tax payers who don't care about the team), it is a welfare-improving transaction. </p> <p>Cities would be better off by cooperating. The Prisoner's Dilemma analysis applies. But it applies to every cartel; that's why cartels are so unstable. The dominant strategy is always to cheat (or tattle), at least for the marginal player. </p> <p>The problem with these deals is not that cities are being "exploited." It is that these deals inevitably redistribute wealth from people who don't care about the sport to people who do. It is unfair. If the team really will generate a large surplus, there ought to be some way of getting the people who benefit to fork over the money.</p> Let me play devil’s advocate.

I know there are oodles of studies showing that these publicly-funded stadiums do not give cities a reasonable return on investment.

Still, there are some pretty sizable intangible benefits to having a hometown team. At least if there is a lot of enthusiasm for the sport and team. A New Yorker can get a lot of pleasure out of following the Yankees even if he only goes to a ballgame once or twice a year. All of this enjoyment is a consumer surplus because it is not captured by ticket sales. And there’s an assurance it won’t be competed away because the number of teams is artificially limited.

Cities know that they will (may) generate a surplus by landing a team. So they bid for the team. Just like any buyer. As long as the aggregate surplus exceeds the price paid (including the disutility caused to tax payers who don’t care about the team), it is a welfare-improving transaction.

Cities would be better off by cooperating. The Prisoner’s Dilemma analysis applies. But it applies to every cartel; that’s why cartels are so unstable. The dominant strategy is always to cheat (or tattle), at least for the marginal player.

The problem with these deals is not that cities are being “exploited.” It is that these deals inevitably redistribute wealth from people who don’t care about the sport to people who do. It is unfair. If the team really will generate a large surplus, there ought to be some way of getting the people who benefit to fork over the money.

]]> By: Robert C. http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2007/11/gun-to-the-head.html/comment-page-1#comment-8148 Robert C. Sat, 10 Nov 2007 18:49:52 +0000 http://coyote-blog.com/wordpress/2007/11/gun-to-the-head.html#comment-8148 <p>Take a look at Houston, Texas.<br /> We have been saddled with 3 new stadiums in recent years, IE: Minute Maid Park, Reliant Stadium and Toyota Center, all together the tax payers of Harris county are shelling out over $1 Billion to pay for these things.</p> <p>And i hope Seattle sticks it to the NBA.</p> Take a look at Houston, Texas.
We have been saddled with 3 new stadiums in recent years, IE: Minute Maid Park, Reliant Stadium and Toyota Center, all together the tax payers of Harris county are shelling out over $1 Billion to pay for these things.

And i hope Seattle sticks it to the NBA.

]]> By: Charlie B http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2007/11/gun-to-the-head.html/comment-page-1#comment-8147 Charlie B Sat, 10 Nov 2007 18:20:31 +0000 http://coyote-blog.com/wordpress/2007/11/gun-to-the-head.html#comment-8147 <p>Stern is a saint compared to the MLB Owners. At least he isn't putting the money directly into his own pocket. MLB owned the Montreal Expos /Washington DC Nationals. Once they got the city with arguably the worst public schools in the nation to pony up $600M for the new ball park, MLB sold the team for $450M. If the new owners had to build their own park as the San Francisco Giants did, MLB would have been luck to get $50M for the team as nobody was going to cough up $1B for the team and new park.</p> Stern is a saint compared to the MLB Owners. At least he isn’t putting the money directly into his own pocket. MLB owned the Montreal Expos /Washington DC Nationals. Once they got the city with arguably the worst public schools in the nation to pony up $600M for the new ball park, MLB sold the team for $450M. If the new owners had to build their own park as the San Francisco Giants did, MLB would have been luck to get $50M for the team as nobody was going to cough up $1B for the team and new park.

]]> By: The Dirty Mac http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2007/11/gun-to-the-head.html/comment-page-1#comment-8146 The Dirty Mac Sat, 10 Nov 2007 04:32:29 +0000 http://coyote-blog.com/wordpress/2007/11/gun-to-the-head.html#comment-8146 <p>A related issue is the use of taxpayer money to build smaller venues to create scarcity and raise prices. The affordable walk-up ticket for a major league baseball game becomes a thing of the past every time one of those new "fan friendly" ballparks opens.</p> A related issue is the use of taxpayer money to build smaller venues to create scarcity and raise prices. The affordable walk-up ticket for a major league baseball game becomes a thing of the past every time one of those new “fan friendly” ballparks opens.

]]> By: Mesa Econoguy http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2007/11/gun-to-the-head.html/comment-page-1#comment-8145 Mesa Econoguy Sat, 10 Nov 2007 03:54:18 +0000 http://coyote-blog.com/wordpress/2007/11/gun-to-the-head.html#comment-8145 <p>Interesting.</p> <p>David Stern is quickly becoming the front-runner for the J.P. Morgan “Monopolist of The Year” award.</p> <p>Then he punishes towns who won’t pony up for Mike Holmgren’s bloated GM/Coach salary (different sport, same market), and “rewards” Phoenix with the 2009 “all-star” game. <br /> <br /> So this shithouse lawyer Stern says “the rule is the rule,” nihil ad rem. </p> <p>I thought commissioners from my hometown Milwaukee were fatally stupid….<br /> </p> Interesting.

David Stern is quickly becoming the front-runner for the J.P. Morgan “Monopolist of The Year” award.

Then he punishes towns who won’t pony up for Mike Holmgren’s bloated GM/Coach salary (different sport, same market), and “rewards” Phoenix with the 2009 “all-star” game.

So this shithouse lawyer Stern says “the rule is the rule,” nihil ad rem.

I thought commissioners from my hometown Milwaukee were fatally stupid….

]]> By: Bearster http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2007/11/gun-to-the-head.html/comment-page-1#comment-8144 Bearster Fri, 09 Nov 2007 22:05:34 +0000 http://coyote-blog.com/wordpress/2007/11/gun-to-the-head.html#comment-8144 <p>Umm, Jim?</p> <p>Where do you think that local governments will get the funds to pony up?</p> Umm, Jim?

Where do you think that local governments will get the funds to pony up?

]]> By: Jim Collins http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2007/11/gun-to-the-head.html/comment-page-1#comment-8143 Jim Collins Fri, 09 Nov 2007 20:31:24 +0000 http://coyote-blog.com/wordpress/2007/11/gun-to-the-head.html#comment-8143 <p>Let's see. The City of Pittsburgh collects a 40% parking tax for each vehicle that goes to a Pirates, Steelers or Penguins game. The average parking fee is about $20.00 so we'll call it $8.00 per vehicle. Now multiply that by the total number of games (about 130 not counting playoffs) and the number of vehicles at each game. This isn't mentioning the tax on the tickets for these events or the tax on food, drink and other items sold at these events. I'm not even going into the income tax that is charged to the players in these events. These Local Governments have made themselves partners in these ventures, it is only fair that they "pony up" some of the costs.</p> Let’s see. The City of Pittsburgh collects a 40% parking tax for each vehicle that goes to a Pirates, Steelers or Penguins game. The average parking fee is about $20.00 so we’ll call it $8.00 per vehicle. Now multiply that by the total number of games (about 130 not counting playoffs) and the number of vehicles at each game. This isn’t mentioning the tax on the tickets for these events or the tax on food, drink and other items sold at these events. I’m not even going into the income tax that is charged to the players in these events. These Local Governments have made themselves partners in these ventures, it is only fair that they “pony up” some of the costs.

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