Get Your Laws off My Body

For a while now, I have been fascinated by the contrast between the Left's position on abortion and its position on universal health care. 

In the abortion debate, the Left was careful to try to establish a broader principal than just support for abortion.  Their position was (and still is) that the government should not interfere in a woman's decision-making about her own body.  Cool.  That's a general principal that any libertarian could love  (Note that there are many libertarians who accept this principal but argue that abortion is the one exception to it if one considers the fetus an independent life.)  The National Organization for Women have cleverly embodied this general principal in the T-Shirt below:
Tskyl2

So now we come to universal health care.  And most every leftish plan has the government paying all of our health care bills.  Well I can absolutely assure you now, both via common sense and observance of practices in European countries with socialized medicine, that a couple of things follow from universal coverage:

  1. The government will be the final decision maker for what care each person will or will not get, how procedures will be performed, and what drugs will be authorized.  If they did not take on these decisions, the system would simply implode financially.  The government cannot afford to pay the bills while allowing individuals to still make their own choices about their care.
  2. The government will have a strong financial incentive to change people's individual lifestyles.  What they eat, how they exercise, their sexual practices, etc. all have a great influence on future health care costs.  Already, we see countries like Britain starting to meddle in these lifestyle choices in the name of reducing health costs.  It is why I have termed the health care Trojan horse for fascism.

I don't think even universal coverage supporters would refute these two points except to say maybe "yes, the government will do those things but we promise to be gentle."   Here is Jon Edwards:

"I'm mandating healthcare for every man woman and child in America and that's the only way to have real universal healthcare."

"Evertime you go into contact with the helathcare system or the govenment you will be signed up."

During a press avail following the event Edwards reiterated his mandate:

"Basically every time they come into contact with either the healthcare
system or the government, whether it's payment of taxes, school, going
to the library, whatever it is they will be signed up."

When asked by a reporter if an individual decided they didn't want healthcare Edwards quickly responded, "You don't get that choice."

So given that, how does the left hold universal coverage in their head at the same time as they argue that "a woman should make decisions for her own body"?  How can the NOW website sell "Keep your laws off my body" T-shirts while promoting universal coverage laws on their home page?  How do you reconcile "pro-choice" with Edward's "you don't get that choice."

I am really interested in someone taking a shot at this.  And don't tell me that the difference is that in universal coverage, the argument is just over what the government will and won't pay for.  I agree not having the government pay for something is not the same as banning it when there are plenty of private alternatives.  But in the systems being advocated by Democratic candidates like Edwards, there will be no "other system" -- the government will be the monopoly provider, or at least the monopoly rules-setter.  It will be what the government wants to give you or nothing.  And there won't even necessarily be another country to which one can run away to get her procedure, because America is that country today where victims of socialist medicine escape to get needed and timely care.

  • Andy

    You're absolutely right, but that's the reality-based community for you. Reality is all in their head as to how they'd like things to be. Real life is truly inconvenient.

  • Bearster

    "So given that, how does the left hold universal coverage in their head at the same time as they argue that 'a woman should make decisions for her own body'?"

    I think the word is "compartmentalization".

  • JoshK

    I guess your typical response from that group will be:

    "Neocon! Bush lied - people died! "

    etc etc

  • MichaelS

    I beg to differ on there being no country of last resort. I fully expect that one of the caribean states or gulf states will become the boutique healthcare provider for those who can afford it. Just like our existing offshore gambling and banking Meccas. Uncle Sam says no to a 2nd knee replacement? Thats ok, I'll jet on over to UAE or St Thomas and get it done in a private hospital there.

    So we will be left with everyone getting crappy care. Once you get turned down by uncle Sam, those of us smart enough to save our own money will avail ourselves to the 'luxury' of paying for our own health care. In the effort to be egalitarian, they will instead be creating a horribly stratified two-tier health care system, worse than the existing system in every aspect.

  • Red

    Actually, Canada's system doesn't work out too badly, generally the most urgent care such as Cancer etc. gets treated immediately w/o the patient having to incur outrageous bills, and when Canadians want to jump the queue for elective surgery such as knee replacement etc. they either go to the US or India, which has a booming "Health Tourism" industry... http://www.health-tourism-india.com/

    So essentially there is already a two tiered system in Canada, and people are free to purchase their own private health care insurance that will go above and beyond what the government is willing to pay for. We just don't like to admit it.

    As for "Fascist" initiatives, I do understand that in Britain they have been doing some questionable things, but up North apart from banning smoking in restaurants and bars, there hasn't been much in the way of restricting personal choice because of our shared medical costs.

    Anyways love this blog and Climate-Skeptic... have already recommended the "Skeptical Laymans Guide" to some people who aren't skeptics yet.

  • mahtso

    It has been illegal to buy private insurance in many Canadian provinces as this Canadian Supreme Court opinion shows: http://scc.lexum.umontreal.ca/en/2005/2005scc35/2005scc35.html

    The opinion also shows that rationing of care is an intended consequence of the system and that people die waiting for coronary care.

    Although I do not have links, a few months ago there was a news story about a Canadian MP that went to California to have her breast cancer treated and there have been recent stories about Canadian’s coming to the U.S. for delivery of children because their system has inadequate facilities.

  • Red

    Hmm... given that I live in Ontario, I guess I can only comment on our own situation... and given that I live in Toronto, I guess I can only comment on the availability of health care in a major urban centre - There are problems with health care delivery in rural Canada.

    "A British Columbia mother was forced to go to Seattle this week after complications due to the premature birth of her baby."

    At least the cost were covered by the Provincial Health Care system.

    I guess no system can be considered perfect...

  • http://thegameiam.livejournal.com David B

    I hadn't put this together before now. That's the strongest argument against a Federal national health care system I've encountered - I'll need to mull this over a bit.

    Thank you!

  • David

    "So given that, how does the left hold universal coverage in their head at the same time as they argue that 'a woman should make decisions for her own body'?"

    I think the word is "compartmentalization".

    It's also called "Hypocracy"... they don't care if they conflict themselves. As long as they think they'll be in charge and 'more equal' than the other animals they'll say and do anything.

  • Andy

    "As long as they think they'll be in charge and 'more equal' than the other animals they'll say and do anything."

    Again, another example of insanity - betting against karma. In "democratic" politics, the pendulum will sooner or later swing to the advantage of the other side.

    To wit, I'm surprised and encouraged by Venezuela, the cakewalk that Chavez thot he'd have towards presidente for life has hit a giant human speed bump.

  • bobby-b

    The key is the arbitrary division of entitlement/power based on one of the many immutable factors - meaning, in the case of abortion, gender.

    Dems have no problem disempowering any group of people, as long as that group of people isn't defined by gender, race, aff-pref . . . any of the categories which we have decided cannot be used to differentiate amongst people.

    In fairness, we do this because, for too long and to the detriment of too many, we allowed divisions to be drawn along those same lines, and then we allowed invalid conclusions to be applied to those divisions.

    Once guys start getting pregnant, abortion'll be over as a right, or as a cause, or as a topic of discussion. The law puts its hands on our bodies all the time, daily, annoyingly - we just get prickley when the law's hands only grab for the wimminfolk.

  • http://assistantvillageidiot.blogspot.com Assistant Village Idiot

    The basic principle is that the Right People should make all the decisions - about abortion, medical care, foreign policy - anything. Then there is no need of any inconvenient principles to measure things by.

  • http://assistantvillageidiot.blogspot.com Assistant Village Idiot

    The basic principle is that the Right People should make all the decisions - about abortion, medical care, foreign policy - anything. Then there is no need of any inconvenient principles to measure things by.

  • http://assistantvillageidiot.blogspot.com Assistant Village Idiot

    The basic principle is that the Right People should make all the decisions - about abortion, medical care, foreign policy - anything. Then there is no need of any inconvenient principles to measure things by.

  • JW

    I've had the same conversations with lefty friends. To them I say "Ya' know, for a bunch of people who scream long and hard about "choice," you'd think you'd want to be known for some choices other than abortion, because I don't see you offering any choices on anything else."

    I never get a coherent response.

  • http://www.goindiamedicaltourism.com Vishal Bansal

    Articles and content in this section of the website are really amazing. From http://www.goindiamedicaltourism.com

  • http://www.lovenwishes.com Gift

    Nice and informative site....good work!
    From http://www.lovenwishes.com

  • http://www.orchidsnroses.com Rose

    Nice Website!!

  • http://www.saadepunjab.com Shiana Agarwal

    It was a amazing experience to visit this website and read the articles and contents. http://www.saadepunjab.com

  • http://www.mumbaiflowerplaza.com Shirin Goel

    I liked the content on this site. Would like to visit again. http://www.mumbaiflowerplaza.com

  • http://www.rosesandgifts.com Shivangi Garg

    Articles and content in this section of the website are really amazing. From http://www.rosesandgifts.com

  • http://www.hyderabadonnet.com Anju Jindal

    Site has very useful content and articles. Will recommend this to others. http://www.hyderabadonnet.com

  • http://www.bangalorewithlove.com Nona Garg

    I really enjoyed my visit to this website. Comments from http://www.bangalorewithlove.com

  • http://www.snehopaharam.com Flower

    Keep up the good work..
    From http://www.snehopaharam.com

  • http://www.aamarbangla.com shirin jindal

    I liked the content on this site. Would like to visit again. http://www.aamarbangla.com

  • http://www.uponnet.com gaurav singal

    Content and website are good http://www.uponnet.com

  • http://www.chennaiflowerplaza.com shirin jindal

    I liked the content on this site. Would like to visit again. http://www.chennaiflowerplaza.com

  • http://www.deccansojourn.com nona shivangi

    I liked the content on this site. Would like to visit again. http://www.deccansojourn.com

  • http://www.orchidsnroses.com Gift

    Nice Website!!
    From http://www.orchidsnroses.com

  • http://www.indiagiftservices.com Shivangi

    The visit was useful. Content was really very informative. From http://www.indiagiftservices.com

  • http://www.delhiblossoms.com Varun Jain

    Very good website. I liked it very much. Comments from http://www.delhiblossoms.com, http://www.ahmedabadonnet.com

  • http://www.goagifts.com Deepu Singla

    Contents of this website are good and appreciative. Recommended to all. http://www.goagifts.com, http://www.calcuttaonnet.com

  • http://www.puneonnet.com Arun Bansal

    Articles and content in this section of the website are really amazing. From http://www.puneonnet.com, http://www.tamilnaduonnet.com

  • http://www.aamarbangla.com shirin jindal

    I liked the content on this site. Would like to visit again. http://www.aamarbangla.com

  • http://www.gujaratonnet.com Shanky Jindal

    It was a good experience to read the articles and contents on this site. http://www.gujaratonnet.com, http://www.gurgaonflowerplaza.com

  • http://www.endekeralam.com Vishal Jain

    Articles and content in this section of the website are really amazing. From http://www.endekeralam.com, http://www.delhionnet.com

  • http://www.giftwithlove.com Shallu Garg

    The visit was useful. Content was really very informative. From http://www.giftwithlove.com

  • http://www.keralaflowerplaza.com Anju Mittal

    We liked the information available here.From: http://www.keralaflowerplaza.com

  • http://www.bangaloreflowerplaza.com Anju Mittal

    We liked the information available here. http://www.bangaloreflowerplaza.com

  • http://www.indiafloristonline.com flowers to india

    We are online florist for delivery of flowers and gifts to 250
    cities in India and 23 countries across the world.

  • http://www.flowersfloristsgifts.com http://www.globalflowerdelivery.com

    flowers to india

  • http://www.flowerstochennai.com http://www.flowersfloristsgifts.com

    Keep up good work!

  • http://www.puneflowerdelivery.com http://www.puneflowerdelivery.com

    flowers to india

  • http://www.delhionlinegifts.com Send Flowers and Gifts to delhi

    Send flowers,Gifts,cakes and many more items for all occasions
    in Delhi,Noida,Foridabad,Gurgoan and Gaziazbad, Same day delivery
    is possible.visit-www.delhionlinegifts.com

  • http://www.delhionlinegifts.com Send Flowers and Gifts to delhi

    Send flowers,Gifts,cakes and many more items for all occasions
    in Delhi,Noida,Foridabad,Gurgoan and Gaziazbad, Same day delivery
    is possible.visit-www.delhionlinegifts.com

  • http://www.valentineday.in Divya Jain

    Very good website. I liked it very much. Comments from http://www.valentineday.in