Actually, Ron, one of the things that the oil companies probably don’t like is that ethanol works very well with fuel cells. Biopact.com had a very good article, yesterday, about this. Also, troubling to big oil is the fact that other than solar generated electricity, the cleanest, most efficient, and economical system is a fuel cell/Biogas system.

I’m not going to spend the whole day, today, rearguing the same old arguments I knocked down yesterday. Just one thing: you are pounding on btu content, and completely ignoring Octane. This is a Mistake.

Many of our Vehicles give up 5%, OR LESS, when using ethanol. 105 Octane means the fuel gives up it’s energy MUCH MORE EFFICIENTLY. As a result of this fact, it is a mistake to try to claim that 6 Billion gallons is only equal to 4 billion gallons of gasoline. It just isn’t true. The newer flexfuels are tuned a bit better it seems; and, all indications are that the next wave of flex fuels will be improved over the current generation. An Example: I run about 20 ethanol in my non-flexfuel expedition when I get a chance. The change in fuel mileage is negligible. My gas use gauge doesn’t even pick it up.

BTW, it takes about 2.6 lbs of corn to get a pound of Beef. At today’s prices we’re talking about $0.14/lb. Last year, I guess, we were at a touch less than a dime a pound. That means that 500 lb animal in the slaughterhouse has an extra $25.00 of corn in it. (1) They are starting to get that $25.00 back by feeding DDGS, and (2) They are finding that they can get between 5 and 10 times that amount back by running the manure through an Anaerobic Digester, and, either selling the methane to an ethanol distillery, or Selling Electricity to the Grid. One of the refiners (I think it’s Panda – Could be White) is buying the Manure, unprocessed from it’s local feedlot, and burning the manure.

A good location for some of this info is foodandfuelamerica.com

Gentlemen, have a Nice Day. I’m sure you’re fine folks, but you’re on the wrong side of this argument. – The Scoundrel

Rufus, like many ethanol true-believers, sees an oil-company conspiracy behind every uncomfortable fact. Naturally, oil companies don’t like having to incur extra expenses to handle and dispense ethanol. But my guess is that they are actually pleased with all the investment going into biofuels. Why? Because biofuels have to be blended with their product, thus stretching out the era of the internal combustion engine and therefore demand for liquid transport fuels. The oil companies are certainly going to look more favorably on biofuels than on electric vehicles!

Finally, rufus resorts to that last refuge of the ethanol scoundrel: “We’re spending $120 Billion/yr in Iraq because we’re dependent on the ME for our prosperity.” The USA is spending that kind of money there because it broke Iraq and now it is having to fix it. No conceivable domestic production of biofuels is going to make one bit of difference to what the USA spends in the Middle East over the next decade. And, in any case, the need to reduce consumption of oil does not lead in a straight line to a need to produce massive amounts of biofuels domestically. There are many other options that would be far more cost-effective.

3. We are currently producing 6.488 Billion gallons/ethanol yr. This is about 4.5% of our current gasoline consumption.

Ignores lower energy density of ethanol which reduces this figure to three percent.

Ignores all of the petroleum inputs to make ethanol which is going to reduce the displacement even further.

Ignores the considerable economic damage caused by displacing less then 3 % of us gasoline consumption.

Ignores some really basic math that shows what a destructive, counterproductive, boondoggle ethanol is.

We are using around 16% of the corn crop to replace (at the very most) 3% of current US gasoline usage. If we scale that up it would take 96% of our current corn crop to replace less then twenty percent of the us gasoline.

The mind boggles at what a massive boondoggle ethanol is.

those cattle farmers have been buying corn for well below the cost of production for quite some time now. Guess who’s been making up the difference? Three guesses and the first two don’t count. The main difference is the cattlemen are paying for their own corn now, and I’m off the hook.

More economic ignorance from Rufus.

If the cattle feeders had not been feeding corn the surplus would be bigger, the prices would have been lower and Rufus would have been paying even more in taxes to support the corn farmer subsidies.

Furthermore, rufus misses the obvious solution to the problem. End the corn subsidies don’t replace them with the boondoggle that is ethanol.

9. Big oil has a stranglehold, and this subsidy will probably be necessary for a few more years to keep Big Oil from “Murdering” the Baby in the Cradle.

Ethanol has been subsidized for 27 years. Would another 50 years of subsidies be enough to get ethanol from being an infant to a teenager?

Ignores the fact that if ethanol actually had a positive energy balanced and worked as advertised “big oil” would be producing massive amounts of it.

If ethanol worked as its supporters say it did there would be less risk and more profitability in producing ethanol as opposed to trying to produce oil in places like Venezuela and Nigeria.

The screaming from the cattle feeders’ sector has died down a bit, of late. I guess corn coming back in to “three and a quarterish” has something to do with it

This comment illustrates the degree to which Rufus is either ignorant of the facts of ag economics or completely callous toward the damage the ethanol boondoggle is doing to hard working families.

Those cattle feeders don’t raise their cattle they buy them from other people. When the cattle feeders are losing money they have to pay less for the cattle they buy.

The livelihood of the thousands of small producers that sell cattle to the feedlots is threatened by the ethanol boondoggle.

Rufus either does not understand this or does not care.

F. And, Lord have mercy, don’t worry about our capacity to produce more food. As Science brings more, and more, marginal land into the game there is absolutely no way to imagine how much food we will be able to raise in the future.

The government has been paying farmers hundreds of millions of dollars to take marginal land out of production because of the environmental problems it was causing.

Now thanks to the ethanol boondoggle the government is paying hundreds of millions of dollars to have farmers wreck more marginal land.
The mind boggles

G. In as much as the main use of corn, way and far, is feeding cattle this wouldn’t be a problem, anyway; but, the fact is with the new fractionation technologies they are producing DDGS that are much better suited for hogs and chickens.

More vaporware.

e. Anyway, after allowing for all of the energy inputs we’ve been discussing, and taking the coproducts into account, a modern ethanol refinery can have an energy balance anywhere from plus six to plus twenty, with some refineries running off of cow methane claiming plus forty.

Got cite?

Good news if true.

However, I suspect that the plants that have these returns exist in extremely limited, unique settings. The production from these plants will never amount to even a tiny fraction of the ethanol produced.

d. Basically, you’ve gotta remember this: Anything Petroleum can do (including fertilizers, and pesticides) Biofuels can do. Better.

Got cite?

Or is this more vaporware / wishful thinking / exaggeration of the wonders of ethanol?