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	<title>Comments on: Contributing to Science</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2007/07/contributing-to.html/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2007/07/contributing-to.html</link>
	<description>Dispatches from a Small Business</description>
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		<title>By: e.m.smith</title>
		<link>http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2007/07/contributing-to.html/comment-page-1#comment-6261</link>
		<dc:creator>e.m.smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Sep 2008 06:21:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://coyote-blog.com/wordpress/2007/07/contributing-to.html #comment-6261</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Jamie:  The issue with asphalt is that it is added to places over time.  One thermometer shows a step function, but many locations averaged together looks like a smooth trend.  It&#039;s that average rising trend that is the &quot;average global warming&quot; and is wrong.  &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;One year in one site it&#039;s asphalt.  At another site it&#039;s A/C.  At another site it&#039;s cars parking near by.  The average over time shows heat accumulation.  The reality is that the world is not getting warmer, the thermometers  in areas changing from rural to urban are in ever warmer locations due to the stuff near them changing.&lt;/p&gt;

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jamie:  The issue with asphalt is that it is added to places over time.  One thermometer shows a step function, but many locations averaged together looks like a smooth trend.  It&#8217;s that average rising trend that is the &#8220;average global warming&#8221; and is wrong.  </p>
<p>One year in one site it&#8217;s asphalt.  At another site it&#8217;s A/C.  At another site it&#8217;s cars parking near by.  The average over time shows heat accumulation.  The reality is that the world is not getting warmer, the thermometers  in areas changing from rural to urban are in ever warmer locations due to the stuff near them changing.</p>
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		<title>By: Bret</title>
		<link>http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2007/07/contributing-to.html/comment-page-1#comment-6260</link>
		<dc:creator>Bret</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Apr 2008 17:04:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://coyote-blog.com/wordpress/2007/07/contributing-to.html #comment-6260</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I&#039;m curious, the article states that the device being placed in the middle of an asphalt parking lot will bias the measurements high. However if the goal is to measure temperature *change* from year to year, it may bias it high, but it will bias it high every year. The same with trees, etc. &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;An asphalt parking lot will not be hotter next year than it is this year. So if the readings suggest that it is getting hotter, it&#039;s not because it&#039;s in a parking lot. &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;This article is of course the worst kind of spin, worthy of Faux news. Nice job on snagging those of us not intelligent enough to think as we read the article though. &lt;/p&gt;

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m curious, the article states that the device being placed in the middle of an asphalt parking lot will bias the measurements high. However if the goal is to measure temperature *change* from year to year, it may bias it high, but it will bias it high every year. The same with trees, etc. </p>
<p>An asphalt parking lot will not be hotter next year than it is this year. So if the readings suggest that it is getting hotter, it&#8217;s not because it&#8217;s in a parking lot. </p>
<p>This article is of course the worst kind of spin, worthy of Faux news. Nice job on snagging those of us not intelligent enough to think as we read the article though. </p>
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		<title>By: jamie</title>
		<link>http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2007/07/contributing-to.html/comment-page-1#comment-6259</link>
		<dc:creator>jamie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Sep 2007 04:17:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://coyote-blog.com/wordpress/2007/07/contributing-to.html #comment-6259</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Saskboy,  Your not the least interested in any science except the &quot;science&quot; that supports your belief (blind faith might be a better description) that we as people are responsible for global warming.  You ignore the fact that this is NOT the &quot;warmest&quot; the earth has been nor the &quot;coldest&quot;.  People, I would hope you would agree, had nothing to do with influencing global temperatures 10,000 to 20,000 years ago so what caused the global warming/cooling then?&lt;/p&gt;

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Saskboy,  Your not the least interested in any science except the &#8220;science&#8221; that supports your belief (blind faith might be a better description) that we as people are responsible for global warming.  You ignore the fact that this is NOT the &#8220;warmest&#8221; the earth has been nor the &#8220;coldest&#8221;.  People, I would hope you would agree, had nothing to do with influencing global temperatures 10,000 to 20,000 years ago so what caused the global warming/cooling then?</p>
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		<title>By: Saskboy</title>
		<link>http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2007/07/contributing-to.html/comment-page-1#comment-6258</link>
		<dc:creator>Saskboy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Aug 2007 05:49:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://coyote-blog.com/wordpress/2007/07/contributing-to.html #comment-6258</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;The point isn&#039;t that we can &quot;control&quot; it Doug. It&#039;s that we can ABUSE our atmosphere, like we abuse our water and soil, at our own peril.&lt;/p&gt;

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The point isn&#8217;t that we can &#8220;control&#8221; it Doug. It&#8217;s that we can ABUSE our atmosphere, like we abuse our water and soil, at our own peril.</p>
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		<title>By: Doug</title>
		<link>http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2007/07/contributing-to.html/comment-page-1#comment-6257</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Aug 2007 00:14:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://coyote-blog.com/wordpress/2007/07/contributing-to.html #comment-6257</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;If man can control earth&#039;s temperature, who gets to control the thermostat?  If the temperature gauge is off by a few degrees, does that not affect the set point?&lt;/p&gt;

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If man can control earth&#8217;s temperature, who gets to control the thermostat?  If the temperature gauge is off by a few degrees, does that not affect the set point?</p>
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		<title>By: Saskboy</title>
		<link>http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2007/07/contributing-to.html/comment-page-1#comment-6256</link>
		<dc:creator>Saskboy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Aug 2007 05:43:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://coyote-blog.com/wordpress/2007/07/contributing-to.html #comment-6256</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Sotosoroto, smog and smoke obviously travels hundreds of kilometers, so your opinion holds no water.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;==&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&quot;The point is that CO2 is not a air pollutant &quot;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Nonsense! It&#039;s oxidized carbon released from underground (in the case of fossil fuels) and strewn willy nilly into the air. Pollution is the undesired distribution of a material into a space we don&#039;t intend for it to build up in.&lt;/p&gt;

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sotosoroto, smog and smoke obviously travels hundreds of kilometers, so your opinion holds no water.</p>
<p>==</p>
<p>&#8220;The point is that CO2 is not a air pollutant &#8220;</p>
<p>Nonsense! It&#8217;s oxidized carbon released from underground (in the case of fossil fuels) and strewn willy nilly into the air. Pollution is the undesired distribution of a material into a space we don&#8217;t intend for it to build up in.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim Steele</title>
		<link>http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2007/07/contributing-to.html/comment-page-1#comment-6255</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Steele</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Aug 2007 22:23:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://coyote-blog.com/wordpress/2007/07/contributing-to.html #comment-6255</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Saskboy wrote &quot;Is your point to improve the practice of science, or to cover up the urgent need to reduce pollution by casting doubt on the occurrence of climate change?&quot;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I have talked to many people who (previously) agreed with the global warming and CO2 connection. As we debated they all readily admitted they do not know the science but take the scientists word. They will then typically concede my points but but argue that we still need to prevent air pollution. I agree. The point is that CO2 is not a air pollutant and the scientists who misrepresent the data are polluting true scientific efforts and the public trust. My concern is that sincere attempts to improve the enviroment will meet a wave of backlash when the shoddy science of CO2 warming unravels.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;/p&gt;

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Saskboy wrote &#8220;Is your point to improve the practice of science, or to cover up the urgent need to reduce pollution by casting doubt on the occurrence of climate change?&#8221;</p>
<p>I have talked to many people who (previously) agreed with the global warming and CO2 connection. As we debated they all readily admitted they do not know the science but take the scientists word. They will then typically concede my points but but argue that we still need to prevent air pollution. I agree. The point is that CO2 is not a air pollutant and the scientists who misrepresent the data are polluting true scientific efforts and the public trust. My concern is that sincere attempts to improve the enviroment will meet a wave of backlash when the shoddy science of CO2 warming unravels.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim Steele</title>
		<link>http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2007/07/contributing-to.html/comment-page-1#comment-6254</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Steele</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Aug 2007 22:13:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://coyote-blog.com/wordpress/2007/07/contributing-to.html #comment-6254</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Surveying these sites is a great idea that has nagged at me for a few years now. Your surveys confirm my suspicion about urban heat effects. However I am also very suspicious about rural locations. &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I have worked on watershed restoration projects. Not only in California but globally we have lost 50% of our wetlands. Wetlands with their higher heat capacity moderate temperature fluctuations. And this loss of wetlands is not incorporated in any climate models that I am aware of. However this wetland loss does not include degradation of stream channels in which down cutting of these channels have lowered the water tables.  In our watershed this led to a loss of willow habitat that was replaced by sage brush. The loss of transpiring plants can lower local humidity and affect temperatures by 2 degrees. Estimates in California are that 99.9% of our streams have been dgreaded. &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;My 2 degree temperature difference due to transpiration comes from studies on hydraulic redistribution and its effect on temperature. This was in part motivated by scientists trying to understand why climate models have tropical rain forest overheating more than measured. &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;See http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/102/49/17576&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I feel like the CO2 advocates have stolen the environmental movement and are taking away funds that could be put towards restoring wetlands. Attacking big oil and carmakers does nothing to restore our wetlands and safeguard the majority of species that use that habitat. And even if CO2 advoacates are right, restoring wetlands maybe the best hedge to ameliorate temperature change up or down.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Great site. Keep the debate going!&lt;/p&gt;

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Surveying these sites is a great idea that has nagged at me for a few years now. Your surveys confirm my suspicion about urban heat effects. However I am also very suspicious about rural locations. </p>
<p>I have worked on watershed restoration projects. Not only in California but globally we have lost 50% of our wetlands. Wetlands with their higher heat capacity moderate temperature fluctuations. And this loss of wetlands is not incorporated in any climate models that I am aware of. However this wetland loss does not include degradation of stream channels in which down cutting of these channels have lowered the water tables.  In our watershed this led to a loss of willow habitat that was replaced by sage brush. The loss of transpiring plants can lower local humidity and affect temperatures by 2 degrees. Estimates in California are that 99.9% of our streams have been dgreaded. </p>
<p>My 2 degree temperature difference due to transpiration comes from studies on hydraulic redistribution and its effect on temperature. This was in part motivated by scientists trying to understand why climate models have tropical rain forest overheating more than measured. </p>
<p>See <a href="http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/102/49/17576" rel="nofollow">http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/102/49/17576</a></p>
<p>I feel like the CO2 advocates have stolen the environmental movement and are taking away funds that could be put towards restoring wetlands. Attacking big oil and carmakers does nothing to restore our wetlands and safeguard the majority of species that use that habitat. And even if CO2 advoacates are right, restoring wetlands maybe the best hedge to ameliorate temperature change up or down.</p>
<p>Great site. Keep the debate going!</p>
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		<title>By: Sotosoroto</title>
		<link>http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2007/07/contributing-to.html/comment-page-1#comment-6253</link>
		<dc:creator>Sotosoroto</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Aug 2007 17:03:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://coyote-blog.com/wordpress/2007/07/contributing-to.html #comment-6253</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I&#039;m living in a urban area of millions and I have plenty of clean air to breathe.  Some other cities I&#039;ve visited certainly have a problem with pollution, but that&#039;s a local problem, not global.  There&#039;s no need to destroy our civilization just because the Chinese can&#039;t keep Beijing healthy.&lt;/p&gt;

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m living in a urban area of millions and I have plenty of clean air to breathe.  Some other cities I&#8217;ve visited certainly have a problem with pollution, but that&#8217;s a local problem, not global.  There&#8217;s no need to destroy our civilization just because the Chinese can&#8217;t keep Beijing healthy.</p>
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		<title>By: Saskboy</title>
		<link>http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2007/07/contributing-to.html/comment-page-1#comment-6252</link>
		<dc:creator>Saskboy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Aug 2007 05:07:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://coyote-blog.com/wordpress/2007/07/contributing-to.html #comment-6252</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;No grants needed here Thaiphoon, just some clean air to breathe. Do you want to reduce pollution or not?&lt;/p&gt;

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No grants needed here Thaiphoon, just some clean air to breathe. Do you want to reduce pollution or not?</p>
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