Comments on: How’s That Welfare State Working Out For You http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2007/05/hows_that_welfa.html Dispatches from a Small Business Sun, 12 Feb 2012 09:39:47 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Jody http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2007/05/hows_that_welfa.html/comment-page-1#comment-5679 Jody Fri, 25 May 2007 22:41:54 +0000 http://coyote-blog.com/wordpress/2007/05/hows_that_welfa.html#comment-5679 <p>I'll take Ed's original source citation as the definitive word as well...</p> I’ll take Ed’s original source citation as the definitive word as well…

]]> By: dearieme http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2007/05/hows_that_welfa.html/comment-page-1#comment-5678 dearieme Fri, 25 May 2007 01:00:43 +0000 http://coyote-blog.com/wordpress/2007/05/hows_that_welfa.html#comment-5678 <p>I say, I say, I say, what has Sweden got that Norway hasn't?</p> <p>Good neighbours.</p> <p>(Popular Norwegian joke)</p> I say, I say, I say, what has Sweden got that Norway hasn’t?

Good neighbours.

(Popular Norwegian joke)

]]> By: Ed Heil http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2007/05/hows_that_welfa.html/comment-page-1#comment-5677 Ed Heil Thu, 24 May 2007 23:48:13 +0000 http://coyote-blog.com/wordpress/2007/05/hows_that_welfa.html#comment-5677 <p>Sweet! I found the original research this graph is based on.</p> <p>http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&client=firefox-a&cluster=12351373352853024822</p> <p>The numbers given *are* percentages of the population living in "poverty" where "poverty" is defined "using the official US poverty line". Yes, Australia has 17.6% poverty by that measurement, the U.S. has 13.6% of its population in poverty, and Luxembourg 0.3% of its population in poverty by that measure.</p> <p>The paper in question does not mention a "$11 per day" figure but it is the source cited by nationmaster.com and its numbers (percentages) are the figures given by nationmaster.com.</p> <p>Case closed.<br /> </p> Sweet! I found the original research this graph is based on.

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&client=firefox-a&cluster=12351373352853024822

The numbers given *are* percentages of the population living in “poverty” where “poverty” is defined “using the official US poverty line”. Yes, Australia has 17.6% poverty by that measurement, the U.S. has 13.6% of its population in poverty, and Luxembourg 0.3% of its population in poverty by that measure.

The paper in question does not mention a “$11 per day” figure but it is the source cited by nationmaster.com and its numbers (percentages) are the figures given by nationmaster.com.

Case closed.

]]> By: OneEyedMan http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2007/05/hows_that_welfa.html/comment-page-1#comment-5676 OneEyedMan Thu, 24 May 2007 23:46:42 +0000 http://coyote-blog.com/wordpress/2007/05/hows_that_welfa.html#comment-5676 <p>"the average Norwegian makes over $10K more a year than the average American"<br /> This was a surprise to me so I tried to validate this fact. </p> <p>This is what I found instead (source Wikipedia): <br /> PPP per capita<br /> Luxembourg 69,800<br /> Norway 42,364<br /> United States 41,399<br /> <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Per_capita_income" rel="nofollow">Some national per capita income levels</a></p> “the average Norwegian makes over $10K more a year than the average American”
This was a surprise to me so I tried to validate this fact.

This is what I found instead (source Wikipedia):
PPP per capita
Luxembourg 69,800
Norway 42,364
United States 41,399
Some national per capita income levels

]]> By: Ed Heil http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2007/05/hows_that_welfa.html/comment-page-1#comment-5675 Ed Heil Thu, 24 May 2007 23:39:23 +0000 http://coyote-blog.com/wordpress/2007/05/hows_that_welfa.html#comment-5675 <p>Jody, nothing you said in your comment accurately reflects anything I meant to say, so let me try again.</p> <p>I strongly suspect that this graph --<br /> http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/eco_pop_und_11_a_day-economy-population-under-11-day</p> <p>gives the *percentages* under $11 a day, not the *absolute numbers* as it appears to.</p> <p>The graph linked to above in the article would then be "the percentage in poverty divided by the population," which is a meaningless number.</p> <p>I base this on the fact that similar graphs nationmaster provides for "under $1/2/4 a day" make sense only if they are interpreted the way I suggest.</p> <p>If my guess is true, then the graph this article links to is irrelevant and misleading.</p> <p><br /> </p> Jody, nothing you said in your comment accurately reflects anything I meant to say, so let me try again.

I strongly suspect that this graph –
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/eco_pop_und_11_a_day-economy-population-under-11-day

gives the *percentages* under $11 a day, not the *absolute numbers* as it appears to.

The graph linked to above in the article would then be “the percentage in poverty divided by the population,” which is a meaningless number.

I base this on the fact that similar graphs nationmaster provides for “under $1/2/4 a day” make sense only if they are interpreted the way I suggest.

If my guess is true, then the graph this article links to is irrelevant and misleading.

]]> By: dearieme http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2007/05/hows_that_welfa.html/comment-page-1#comment-5674 dearieme Thu, 24 May 2007 22:06:42 +0000 http://coyote-blog.com/wordpress/2007/05/hows_that_welfa.html#comment-5674 <p>"Social mobility is what strikes me as critical in a free society." But it's surely a mere assumption that mobility is highest in the USA: does it stand up to scrutiny?</p> “Social mobility is what strikes me as critical in a free society.” But it’s surely a mere assumption that mobility is highest in the USA: does it stand up to scrutiny?

]]> By: Jussi Hämäläinen http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2007/05/hows_that_welfa.html/comment-page-1#comment-5673 Jussi Hämäläinen Thu, 24 May 2007 20:36:50 +0000 http://coyote-blog.com/wordpress/2007/05/hows_that_welfa.html#comment-5673 <p>Ed and Jody, you are both wrong!</p> <p>Jody,That latter graph that Ed linked to with totals doesn't refer to <b>millions of people</b>,it's the total number.Not 4,3 million, just 4.3 people!Norway is a rich country,you know.</p> <p>Ed,the samples here are so small as to be statistically insignificant.The researchers did not go to Norway and find 4,3 poor people, it's an extrapolation based on the estimated curve of income distribution.All of the data here is well within margin of error and thus meaningless.</p> <p>In other words,the data here tells us nothing.</p> Ed and Jody, you are both wrong!

Jody,That latter graph that Ed linked to with totals doesn’t refer to millions of people,it’s the total number.Not 4,3 million, just 4.3 people!Norway is a rich country,you know.

Ed,the samples here are so small as to be statistically insignificant.The researchers did not go to Norway and find 4,3 poor people, it’s an extrapolation based on the estimated curve of income distribution.All of the data here is well within margin of error and thus meaningless.

In other words,the data here tells us nothing.

]]> By: Jody http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2007/05/hows_that_welfa.html/comment-page-1#comment-5672 Jody Thu, 24 May 2007 19:26:14 +0000 http://coyote-blog.com/wordpress/2007/05/hows_that_welfa.html#comment-5672 <p>Ed - you're wrong and nation master is right, or at least if Nationmaster's absolute totals are correct as you suggest they are, then their percentages are correct. </p> <p>Norway has about 4.5 million people. Your absolute graph says 4.3 million people in Norway live on less than $11/day. That's 93-94% or 0.936 million out of every million less than $11/day as shown in coyote's screen capture. The US with 13.6 million living below $11/day translates into about 4.6% (13.6/300).</p> <p>So yes, there are more people in poverty in the US than in Norway, but as a percentage of the population the US is much less than Norway. </p> Ed – you’re wrong and nation master is right, or at least if Nationmaster’s absolute totals are correct as you suggest they are, then their percentages are correct.

Norway has about 4.5 million people. Your absolute graph says 4.3 million people in Norway live on less than $11/day. That’s 93-94% or 0.936 million out of every million less than $11/day as shown in coyote’s screen capture. The US with 13.6 million living below $11/day translates into about 4.6% (13.6/300).

So yes, there are more people in poverty in the US than in Norway, but as a percentage of the population the US is much less than Norway.

]]> By: Nick http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2007/05/hows_that_welfa.html/comment-page-1#comment-5671 Nick Thu, 24 May 2007 18:21:38 +0000 http://coyote-blog.com/wordpress/2007/05/hows_that_welfa.html#comment-5671 <p>Whether the US is high or low in relation to poverty, to me, is not important. Social mobility is what strikes me as critical in a free society. I'd much rather live in a society where freedom and opportunity coexist with minimal government intervention.</p> Whether the US is high or low in relation to poverty, to me, is not important. Social mobility is what strikes me as critical in a free society. I’d much rather live in a society where freedom and opportunity coexist with minimal government intervention.

]]> By: Ed Heil http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2007/05/hows_that_welfa.html/comment-page-1#comment-5670 Ed Heil Thu, 24 May 2007 15:17:41 +0000 http://coyote-blog.com/wordpress/2007/05/hows_that_welfa.html#comment-5670 <p>Nationmaster.com has it wrong. The numbers it uses as absolute totals seem to already be percentages. (if Nationmaster.com was right, there would only be 72 people living in absolute poverty in Mali -- http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/eco_pop_und_1_a_day-economy-population-under-1-day#source - compare that to the numbers here http://library.thinkquest.org/05aug/00282/over_world.htm#africa). Much more likely, it's 72 percent of the population.</p> <p>So the Nationmaster.com graph is comparing (% in poverty ) / population, when it thinks it's comparing (absolute # in poverty) / population. </p> <p>If that is correct and Nationmaster.com is using percentages as if they were absolute totals, then the relevant graph is this one --</p> <p>http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/eco_pop_und_11_a_day-economy-population-under-11-day</p> <p>and it puts the U.S. near the unfortunate top and socialist Norway near the coveted bottom.</p> <p>Looks like that welfare state actually is working out for them pretty well, at least by this measure.<br /> </p> Nationmaster.com has it wrong. The numbers it uses as absolute totals seem to already be percentages. (if Nationmaster.com was right, there would only be 72 people living in absolute poverty in Mali — http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/eco_pop_und_1_a_day-economy-population-under-1-day#source – compare that to the numbers here http://library.thinkquest.org/05aug/00282/over_world.htm#africa). Much more likely, it’s 72 percent of the population.

So the Nationmaster.com graph is comparing (% in poverty ) / population, when it thinks it’s comparing (absolute # in poverty) / population.

If that is correct and Nationmaster.com is using percentages as if they were absolute totals, then the relevant graph is this one –

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/eco_pop_und_11_a_day-economy-population-under-11-day

and it puts the U.S. near the unfortunate top and socialist Norway near the coveted bottom.

Looks like that welfare state actually is working out for them pretty well, at least by this measure.

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