Comments on: I Don’t Get Light Rail http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2006/12/i_dont_get_ligh.html Dispatches from a Small Business Sun, 12 Feb 2012 09:39:47 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Royko http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2006/12/i_dont_get_ligh.html/comment-page-1#comment-4286 Royko Fri, 15 Dec 2006 13:54:07 +0000 http://coyote-blog.com/wordpress/2006/12/i_dont_get_ligh.html#comment-4286 <p>Ottawa had the courage Thursday to fend off Siemens.<br /> ********<br /> http://www.ottawasun.com/home.html<br /> ***********<br /> http://www.cfra.com/headlines/index.asp<br /> **********<br /> http://www.cbc.ca/ottawa/<br /> </p> Ottawa had the courage Thursday to fend off Siemens.
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http://www.ottawasun.com/home.html
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http://www.cfra.com/headlines/index.asp
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http://www.cbc.ca/ottawa/

]]> By: Xmas http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2006/12/i_dont_get_ligh.html/comment-page-1#comment-4285 Xmas Thu, 14 Dec 2006 16:12:11 +0000 http://coyote-blog.com/wordpress/2006/12/i_dont_get_ligh.html#comment-4285 <p>I can't remember which city it was, but I'm pretty sure one city went with dedicated Bus lanes instead of a light rail system, and that worked much better. Found it, Curitiba, Brazil.</p> <p>http://www.urbanecology.org.au/topics/busrapidtransit.html</p> I can’t remember which city it was, but I’m pretty sure one city went with dedicated Bus lanes instead of a light rail system, and that worked much better. Found it, Curitiba, Brazil.

http://www.urbanecology.org.au/topics/busrapidtransit.html

]]> By: Craig http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2006/12/i_dont_get_ligh.html/comment-page-1#comment-4284 Craig Thu, 14 Dec 2006 06:07:49 +0000 http://coyote-blog.com/wordpress/2006/12/i_dont_get_ligh.html#comment-4284 <p>Houston has a similar center-of-the-road light rail. After it debuted, there were a large number of vehicle-train crashes as cars tried to turn left across the tracks and were hit by a train approaching from the rear. I suppose the same thing will happen in Phoenix.</p> Houston has a similar center-of-the-road light rail. After it debuted, there were a large number of vehicle-train crashes as cars tried to turn left across the tracks and were hit by a train approaching from the rear. I suppose the same thing will happen in Phoenix.

]]> By: Bill http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2006/12/i_dont_get_ligh.html/comment-page-1#comment-4283 Bill Thu, 14 Dec 2006 00:50:53 +0000 http://coyote-blog.com/wordpress/2006/12/i_dont_get_ligh.html#comment-4283 <p>As a refugee from Santa Clara's dysfunctional light rail, I generally think it's a boondoggle, at least as we now build them. The infrastructure we seem to require today is far more costly than streetcar lines of the '30s and '40s (why use a catenary wire system with high-speed pantographs, when line speed is held to less than 50 mph, in place of the simple single wire/trolley pole system used by streetcars).</p> <p>In it's original configuration, Santa Clara's system connected two areas of employment concentration with downtown, but did little to reach residential areas. Couple that with limited service hours, and you get a lot of empty cars running back and forth.</p> <p>On the other hand, such systems do have a virtue: the service is unlikely to vanish as local politicians play with routing, a common vice of urban bus lines. It makes little sense to base housing decisions on government operated bus lines; service will come and go on political whims. At least light rail routing is predictable; although this is not, I think, enough of a virtue to overcome the incredible cost.</p> As a refugee from Santa Clara’s dysfunctional light rail, I generally think it’s a boondoggle, at least as we now build them. The infrastructure we seem to require today is far more costly than streetcar lines of the ’30s and ’40s (why use a catenary wire system with high-speed pantographs, when line speed is held to less than 50 mph, in place of the simple single wire/trolley pole system used by streetcars).

In it’s original configuration, Santa Clara’s system connected two areas of employment concentration with downtown, but did little to reach residential areas. Couple that with limited service hours, and you get a lot of empty cars running back and forth.

On the other hand, such systems do have a virtue: the service is unlikely to vanish as local politicians play with routing, a common vice of urban bus lines. It makes little sense to base housing decisions on government operated bus lines; service will come and go on political whims. At least light rail routing is predictable; although this is not, I think, enough of a virtue to overcome the incredible cost.

]]> By: Ray G http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2006/12/i_dont_get_ligh.html/comment-page-1#comment-4282 Ray G Thu, 14 Dec 2006 00:47:58 +0000 http://coyote-blog.com/wordpress/2006/12/i_dont_get_ligh.html#comment-4282 <p>We had a local radio guy here a few years ago who was great on these things, but he lost his mind, and now he's on a radio station so small that the signal fuzzes out if more than two birds fly overhead. </p> <p>When this ugly thing first reared its head, he had dug up some dirt on the developers behind it, and the main culprits, . . er. . politicians involved, and it was obvious that that the thing was also serving to make a few commerical land holders much wealthier than they already were. </p> <p>Things like buying up X amount of prime property along the route, before it was widely known exactly what the route would be. One politician is connected with a dial-a-ride type of company that will be working wtih the light rail. I'll dig around to see what I find on Google or wherever. Might be interesting. </p> We had a local radio guy here a few years ago who was great on these things, but he lost his mind, and now he’s on a radio station so small that the signal fuzzes out if more than two birds fly overhead.

When this ugly thing first reared its head, he had dug up some dirt on the developers behind it, and the main culprits, . . er. . politicians involved, and it was obvious that that the thing was also serving to make a few commerical land holders much wealthier than they already were.

Things like buying up X amount of prime property along the route, before it was widely known exactly what the route would be. One politician is connected with a dial-a-ride type of company that will be working wtih the light rail. I’ll dig around to see what I find on Google or wherever. Might be interesting.

]]> By: Sugar Cookie http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2006/12/i_dont_get_ligh.html/comment-page-1#comment-4281 Sugar Cookie Wed, 13 Dec 2006 22:21:36 +0000 http://coyote-blog.com/wordpress/2006/12/i_dont_get_ligh.html#comment-4281 <p>As a resident of Portland, I always laugh about the national romance with our Max Line. Frankly, it sucks. It's main function is connecting the two malls in downtown. </p> <p>It doesn't reach enough places and most people only use it the "Fairless Square"--an area of town inside of which it is free to ride. And the fairless square creates another problem: it's only worth it to pay to ride if you travel a long distance. Otherwise you could pay the same price to travel 20 miles as you would to cover ten blocks. </p> <p> </p> As a resident of Portland, I always laugh about the national romance with our Max Line. Frankly, it sucks. It’s main function is connecting the two malls in downtown.

It doesn’t reach enough places and most people only use it the “Fairless Square”–an area of town inside of which it is free to ride. And the fairless square creates another problem: it’s only worth it to pay to ride if you travel a long distance. Otherwise you could pay the same price to travel 20 miles as you would to cover ten blocks.

]]> By: Bob Smith http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2006/12/i_dont_get_ligh.html/comment-page-1#comment-4280 Bob Smith Wed, 13 Dec 2006 21:02:12 +0000 http://coyote-blog.com/wordpress/2006/12/i_dont_get_ligh.html#comment-4280 <p>Santa Clara county's light rail system was such a boondoggle that they were hundreds of millions of dollars in the red and had to ask for an additional 1/2 cent, 30 year, sales tax to finance it. It turns out that their ridership projections were hopelessly optimistic (read: fraudulent were this the private sector) and there was little or no budgetary discipline since they could keep asking for yet more sales taxes if they screwed up (1.5c total for public transit in SCC). It's nice to ride, but generally useless, and you pray there isn't an accident or you'll be stuck since unlike a bus you can't route around it. Since it's at grade it also screws up traffic. As for pollution, modern cars are so clean that electric rail no longer offers a pollution advantage, and light rail's rolling stock is so heavy that light rail produces *more* CO2.</p> Santa Clara county’s light rail system was such a boondoggle that they were hundreds of millions of dollars in the red and had to ask for an additional 1/2 cent, 30 year, sales tax to finance it. It turns out that their ridership projections were hopelessly optimistic (read: fraudulent were this the private sector) and there was little or no budgetary discipline since they could keep asking for yet more sales taxes if they screwed up (1.5c total for public transit in SCC). It’s nice to ride, but generally useless, and you pray there isn’t an accident or you’ll be stuck since unlike a bus you can’t route around it. Since it’s at grade it also screws up traffic. As for pollution, modern cars are so clean that electric rail no longer offers a pollution advantage, and light rail’s rolling stock is so heavy that light rail produces *more* CO2.

]]> By: Rob http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2006/12/i_dont_get_ligh.html/comment-page-1#comment-4279 Rob Wed, 13 Dec 2006 20:14:33 +0000 http://coyote-blog.com/wordpress/2006/12/i_dont_get_ligh.html#comment-4279 <p>Yes, here in Charlotte, NC, we are building a light rail system, here's what you can expect:</p> <p>-Cost overrun (oops, we order things to early, or bought $10 million dollars of the wrong color paint) leading to<br /> -Funds diverted from other areas (our beltway is 75% complete after 20 yrs, and is not wide enough)<br /> -heavy congestion like you say (our rail will cross major roads, forcing traffic to stop longer)<br /> -subsidized ridership ... I can't wait to see how much extra tax I get to pay for that<br /> -more bike lanes (it's a symptom and/or co-disease of light rail)<br /> -light rail lines that don't have any park and ride areas ???<br /> -and the ultimate goal is: urban planning and saving the environment, telling you how to build your land and forcing you to live under the rules<br /> of HOA, to which you sign away many of your constitutional rights, which is indirectly signing them away to the gov't</p> <p>Correct me if I'm wrong but NYC and Paris are both underground and both systems are still subsized by taxpayers</p> Yes, here in Charlotte, NC, we are building a light rail system, here’s what you can expect:

-Cost overrun (oops, we order things to early, or bought $10 million dollars of the wrong color paint) leading to
-Funds diverted from other areas (our beltway is 75% complete after 20 yrs, and is not wide enough)
-heavy congestion like you say (our rail will cross major roads, forcing traffic to stop longer)
-subsidized ridership … I can’t wait to see how much extra tax I get to pay for that
-more bike lanes (it’s a symptom and/or co-disease of light rail)
-light rail lines that don’t have any park and ride areas ???
-and the ultimate goal is: urban planning and saving the environment, telling you how to build your land and forcing you to live under the rules
of HOA, to which you sign away many of your constitutional rights, which is indirectly signing them away to the gov’t

Correct me if I’m wrong but NYC and Paris are both underground and both systems are still subsized by taxpayers

]]> By: Leah http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2006/12/i_dont_get_ligh.html/comment-page-1#comment-4278 Leah Wed, 13 Dec 2006 20:10:11 +0000 http://coyote-blog.com/wordpress/2006/12/i_dont_get_ligh.html#comment-4278 <p>Every time I see a city (other than Chicago, D.C., Boston, NYC, etc.) doing this kind of thing, I get the "Monorail" song from The Simpsons in my head. <br /> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marge_vs._the_Monorail </p> Every time I see a city (other than Chicago, D.C., Boston, NYC, etc.) doing this kind of thing, I get the “Monorail” song from The Simpsons in my head.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marge_vs._the_Monorail

]]> By: Max http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2006/12/i_dont_get_ligh.html/comment-page-1#comment-4277 Max Wed, 13 Dec 2006 19:56:57 +0000 http://coyote-blog.com/wordpress/2006/12/i_dont_get_ligh.html#comment-4277 <p>It's all about controlling where people go. With the independence of cars people go away. With the control of mass transit they go where the politically connected property owners want, i.e. to the otherwise dying downtown areas. A lot of sunk costs there along with property owners that don't want to let go. "Owners" includes politicians that don't want to see tax rolls devalued as economic activity decamps to the suburbs. If these people see a benefit it doesn't matter to them what it costs others.</p> It’s all about controlling where people go. With the independence of cars people go away. With the control of mass transit they go where the politically connected property owners want, i.e. to the otherwise dying downtown areas. A lot of sunk costs there along with property owners that don’t want to let go. “Owners” includes politicians that don’t want to see tax rolls devalued as economic activity decamps to the suburbs. If these people see a benefit it doesn’t matter to them what it costs others.

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